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Thread: {DIK} Discussion

  1. #761
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Thanks, DBW, for the explantions and the link to the movie!
    I just wanted to make clear if you put two unit in one spot or not. I understand that it's "not": gunners shoot and then retreat behind the pikes. (althogh in the movie it is).

    BTW - can gunners shoot over the heads of a unit in front of them, or do they need to have a clear view?
    (bows and crossbows can shoot over the heads)

    As you know, I share your attitude toward money - it should be scarce to make the game meaningful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil 03 View Post
    The Ultimate version is only available in English.
    That's sad as I prefer the "native" names of the units. Eg.:
    Unterwaldner Armbrustschützen
    Luzerner Handrohrschützen
    Eidgenössische Hakenbüchsenschützen
    Züricher Hakenbüchsengarde
    Eidgenössische Bürgerwehr
    Eidgenössische Hellebardiere
    Eidgenössische Pikeniere
    Berner Stadtgardisten
    Schwyzer Elitepikeniere
    Graubündner Adelsritter
    Thurgauer Berittene Armbrustschützen

    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 21, 2019 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #762

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Thanks, DBW, for the explantions and the link to the movie!
    I just wanted to make clear if you put two unit in one spot or not. I understand that it's "not": gunners shoot and then retreat behind the pikes. (althogh in the movie it is).

    BTW - can gunners shoot over the heads of a unit in front of them, or do they need to have a clear view?
    (bows and crossbows can shoot over the heads)

    As you know, I share your attitude toward money - it should be scarce to make the game meaningful.

    That's sad as I prefer the "native" names of the units. Eg.:
    Unterwaldner Armbrustschützen
    Luzerner Handrohrschützen
    Eidgenössische Hakenbüchsenschützen
    Züricher Hakenbüchsengarde
    Eidgenössische Bürgerwehr
    Eidgenössische Hellebardiere
    Eidgenössische Pikeniere
    Berner Stadtgardisten
    Schwyzer Elitepikeniere
    Graubündner Adelsritter
    Thurgauer Berittene Armbrustschützen
    I'll do some more custom battle tests and report back regarding gunners.

    From the information I read, gunners stand in front of the pikes and when then enemy advances, they retreat behind the pikes , but NOT BEHIND THE MEN holding the pikes.
    Or more likely, the pikes advance and cover the shooters while holding back the enemy so the gunners get point blank shots at them.

    The mod is English, but all the voice are native. However the Hungarian speak Russian and Hafsids English with a Middle Eastern accent. The other factions speak Italian, Spanish, German or French accordingly.
    I also think think Swiss and German troops have German names. But I need to verify this.
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  3. #763
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Böse Wolf View Post
    I'll do some more custom battle tests and report back regarding gunners.

    From the information I read, gunners stand in front of the pikes and when then enemy advances, they retreat behind the pikes , but NOT BEHIND THE MEN holding the pikes.
    Or more likely, the pikes advance and cover the shooters while holding back the enemy so the gunners get point blank shots at them.
    It'd be nice if some old DIK players would step in and report on their experience :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Böse Wolf View Post
    The mod is English, but all the voice are native. However the Hungarian speak Russian and Hafsids English with a Middle Eastern accent. The other factions speak Italian, Spanish, German or French accordingly.
    I also think think Swiss and German troops have German names. But I need to verify this.
    Already those 4 languages are enough for an immersive game.
    A warning: there's a folder GHZ in the mod - but it seems an outdated version of localization, implementing it causes a crash.
    The Swiss troops did have German names in the previous version (and they're included in the Excel file), but they're not in the DIK-Ultimate. It's not so difficult to implement it (actually, I'm going to do it). However, in general I'm not so convinced by the use of place names in the units' names. Why Graubündner Adelsritter ? they're from anywhere, and Graubündner was just about joining the Confederation... It's what I'd like to ask Aneirin, if he shows up in the forum.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 22, 2019 at 04:58 AM.

  4. #764

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Modern-day Graubünden was the most feudalised region of the Swiss alps in the late middle ages, I believe.

  5. #765
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil 03 View Post
    Modern-day Graubünden was the most feudalised region of the Swiss alps in the late middle ages, I believe.
    It was so poor and sparsely populated region that nobody cared if it was joining the Confederation or not. Only in the late 15th century something moved - but from the Grizons side. IMO, even low feudalization in the other regions with more productive agriculture would provide for more noble troops. (I'm open to discussion on this, I don't have any numbers handy).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 23, 2019 at 12:53 AM.

  6. #766

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    That's probably right. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, there are no reports about Confederacy troops in the 15th and 16th century using cavalry to a significant extent. In the battle of Marignano, for example, which was one of the greatest Renaissace battles the Swiss participated in, they fielded not more than 300 cavalrymen, rather less.

  7. #767
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Yep, I agree. This shows that a limited number of such cavalry should be available to the Eidgenossen. How would they be called? I think it was a problem to Aneirin and he couldn't come up with any better solution, and he wanted to diversify names (there're already Luzerner, Berner, Zuricher), so he's chosen Graubinden.

    Does anybody know how it's in the 1212 mod for the ATW-AoC engine?

  8. #768

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    As promised, I did some testing with the Pike and Shot mechanism and AI behaviour.

    1- Gunners shooting with the protection of the pikes:













    2- AI behaviour with the cavalry against the pikes:





    After trying th charge my lines, the Ai decided to outmanoeuver my pikes and got a clean charge with the heavy cav on my arquebusiers, decimating them as they were standing behind the pikes.
    One charge was enough, hence the importance of the pikes to protect the gunners.




    3- AI positioning and Pike and shot formation on the battlefield:



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  9. #769

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Examples look nice!

  10. #770
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Thanks a lot, DBW!
    It's really surprising that the AI is able to make such maneuvers.
    A few questions:
    - you put the handgunners in the place of the pikemen, or just a bit forward? (I understand: a bit forward, and when the enemy approaches, the gunners move back - it looks historical to me)
    - don't you think that pinning enemy with pikes and then mixing halberdiers with your unit to get enemy killed is not very historical (and similarly: holding enemy with the pikes and shooting by gunners place inside of your pikes)?
    - yep, I've seen in some mods the BAI tweaked in such a way that they always take a high ground and wait for the player to attack. It makes the battles really challenging, I recall the BAI in the RTW where you'd just wait for the enemy to attack you).
    JoC

  11. #771

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    When will this mod be released? Just curious!

  12. #772

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    @sullivanclan1: We all appreciate your interest in mods, but could you please take to look at the subforums before you ask superfluous questions in the discussion thread? Had you done so, you'd know that the mod is released since a whole while as well as that it's not being worked on anymore.

  13. #773

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Hey Jurand,

    well from what I read, the gunners or arquebusiers or musketeers would stand in front of the pikes (and on the flanks) and retreat to behind or between the pikes when the enemy closes in, and some can keep shooting from within the pikes.

    At the same time, some pike and shot formations placed halberds in the centre of the pike formation. And when enemy pikes or infantry clashes withe pikes, the halberds approach the front lines and drop their halberds on the enemy, since the have long reach.

    So mixing pikes with gunners or infantry is not historically inaccurate.

    Check out this picture. You can see how the halberds are in the centre of the pikes.

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  14. #774
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Yep, I see, thanks!
    What do you mean by "drop their halberds on the enemy"?

  15. #775

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    I mean that the halberdiers would hit the enemy infantry with their halberds from within the safety of the pikes, using the long reach of the halberds.
    They either thrust or drop (like a chopping movement) the halberds on the enemy.
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  16. #776
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Hmm, the pikes are longer than the halberds, aren't they?

  17. #777

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    They are, I believe the halberdiers just hit anyone who goes past the pikes, or advance themselves towards the tips of the pikes and use their halberds to hit the pinned enemy...
    Frei zu sein, bedarf ist wenig, nur wer frei ist, ist ein König.

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  18. #778

    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Gunners can't shoot over the heads of your units. I've never seen that in any mod.

  19. #779
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    An interesting guide on the halberds has been just published here. I've got no idea if it applies to the DIK - it perhaps depend on how much Aenerin has modified this mod.

  20. #780
    Aneirin's Avatar of flowing verse
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    Default Re: {DIK} Discussion

    Pretty awesome how Der Böse Wolf gots down in action with the pikes. I have never tried such maneuvers back in the days, when I was creating DIK.
    I would have never imagined after implementing the AI tweaks by Germanicu (hope that was his name), that the AI will make such maneuvers

    Basically, I used several AI tweaks but all of them were implemented in the one from Germanicu.
    I guess I have to take some off time this weekend to give DIK a try

    As for the discussion about the naming for the Swiss, don't make a fuss about it, I just took some random names, which I thought where cool.

    Best regards
    Aneirin

    Proud son of Aikanár and brother of Iskar

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