Everything Rome 2 has that Rome 1 didn't

[GussieFinkNottle]

Dunadd, same response to you as to Durnaug: this is just a list, not a judgement. I may not like features or miss old ones, but those are opinions, not factual. I know what has been lost since the original, I made that clear in my counterpart thread linked in the OP, where I listed it all

Thank you for your contribution to the thread +rep

[BroskiDerpman]

Better graphics as said above but specifically...

DIRECTX11 AND GORE!

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?!?!

IS THIS NOT WHY YOU ARE HERE?

[GussieFinkNottle]

Added a poll that will hopefully show what people's final judgement on all these features is.
Don't be too nostalgic, but also don't assume recent=better
Try to be impartial: which would you rather buy and play, if choosing between them?

[Dago Red]

This list, while comprehensive, is relatively meaningless to me. Almost every single one of these features has been in previous total war games. Rome II brought very little new to the table other than a few features that are the worst in the franchise -- instant transformer army fleets, capture the flag field battles, and this jokey political system. The only good one is naval "marines" offloading into land battles but its still debatable whether actually combining the naval and land battles as one is even a good thing. It certainly doesn't play out very well.

[GussieFinkNottle]

This list, while comprehensive, is relatively meaningless to me. Almost every single one of these features has been in previous total war games. Rome II brought very little new to the table other than a few features that are the worst in the franchise -- instant transformer army fleets, capture the flag field battles, and this jokey political system. The only good one is naval "marines" offloading into land battles but its still debatable whether actually combining the naval and land battles as one is even a good thing. It certainly doesn't play out very well.

These were the completely new features, not in any previous total war games (the bits not in italics, bold or underlined):

-Legions and legion legacy/history

-Army naming and banner customisation

-Cinematic camera without HUD

-Line of sight

-Stances: forced march, muster, raiding, fortified (though RTW had forts separate from armies, that could be garrisoned by different armies)

-Transports (debatable benefit)

-Wonders not included in original 7 e.g. Stonehenge

-Political parties

-Territorially unified Rome

-Ability to select upgrades, specialise armies

-117 factions plus rebel and slave emergent factions

-More playable factions: every playable Rome 1 faction (3 Romans, 1 Carthage becomes 3, Gallic tribe, German tribe, Brittanic tribe, Seleucids, Egypt, Greek cities, though DLC, are 3 playable factions (Athens, Sparta, Epirus) and 3 non-playable ones (Syracuse, Rhodes, Pergamon) instead of 1, Parthia) plus Macedon, Pontus and 3 steppe tribes in dlc (and future ‘Northern Tribes’ pack discussed on the grapevine)

-Playable barbarian factions are real tribes: Iceni, Suebi, Arverni instead of Britannia, Germania and Gaul

-Families and civil wars for all factions

-Carthage a republic

-More units (around 3x as many)

-200 naval units

-Integrated diplomatic AI and campaign AI

-More factors affect diplomacy e.g. you were nice to my ally/you had a war with my trade partner

-Ability to give general orders to AI-controlled allies e.g. ‘defend here’

-Edicts

-Province/region system to aid management

-New formations, such as shieldwall (but this was in BI) and defensive testudo

-More city variants and 5 unique cities based on their historical counterparts

-Option of Republic or Empire after civil war, not just Empire

-Cultural and Economic victories, and victory conditions include allies, client states and satrapies

-Full-screen strategic overview map

-Multiple capture points in cities

-CoH-style victory countdown for capturing cities and victory points

-Limited armies intended to give bigger, more decisive battles (and I have found I am fighting larger battles, though some have not)

-Navigable rivers

-Sea regions, that can be neutral, hostile, contested, shared or controlled, each with different bonuses and penalties

-Seleucid, Ptolemaic, and Carthaginian Empires broken up into satrapies/client states

-More weather and lighting effects

-Historical storyline to follow with money rewards

-Map effects e.g. clouds

-Replenishment for fleets at sea in friendly regions

-Barbarian confederations

-Height variations within units

-Caltrops, spike pits, burning bales (fireballs)

-Bigger map

-More cultures(e.g. Illyrians, African Tribes, Sarmatians, Arabs) with their own units and building varieties

-New battle modes: coastal battles, port sieges, more developed ambushes

-Diplomatic options: non-aggression pact, defensive alliance, war target, satrapies or client states instead of protectorates

-Imperium, resulting in agent, edict and army cap boosts

[Dago Red]

I can't go through all of these right now but....



-Legions and legion legacy/history
Aspects of this were in RTR AE from 10 years ago, which had individual historical legions each with their own shield patterns, emblems and banners (even armor in some cases). I don't consider it a wholly new thing. Surely aspects of this in other mods as well. Furthermore the MMORPG style of choosing what traits you want for your armies is childish.They should gain them through other means that you do not 100% control.

-Army naming and banner customisation
Since Empire (possibly before that) you could army name and banner changing was in Shogun FOTS

-Cinematic camera without HUD
Aspects of this in Shogun II

-Line of sight
Since shogun II

-Stances: forced march, muster, raiding, fortified (though RTW had forts separate from armies, that could be garrisoned by different armies)

True, but these are all just dumbed down versions of what we had before, so not only do they lend a more aracde aspect to the campaign, but they have removed their much deeper and fulfilling counterparts.

Forced march was previously a trait or ability that not all generals would be able to undertake - both have their pros/cons, but in reality not all generals could move their men to such feats. This also results in EVERY army doing this anytime it is not moving to attack, so it's a poorly implemented feature.

Muster -- It's just another way to cut corners and remove things to do in the campaign for the console crowd. You could muster troops to your generals for ages now, they would just actually be troops coming from actual cities and you had to protect your logistics -- a key component of any era of warfare to get new men and supplies to you. Now you can magically muster them straight to your army even in the middle of the desert or the middle of the ocean. it's entirely dumbed down.

Raiding -- another game design joke complete with arcade effects. You could ALWAYS raid in TW. Since Rome I you would cause desolation in enemy territory just by being there for more than 1 turn (or 2?). Since M2TW this would even add small bits of income, factored into the much more robust economic information window. Since Empire there were small towns and villages you could physically attack, and even occupy. Roads were real things you could blockade, complete with character animation, to disrupt enemy trade and commerce. Now all of these things are removed and taken place by a single button that a monkey could push and accomplish, sapping the campaign of even more precious things to do. Worse, with this magic button, you can now do all of these things on a remote mountain in your enemy territory instead of actually having to do it in their towns or on their roads. Why even bother playing the campaign at this point, when the game mechanics do everything for you!?

Fortified -- same issues as above, you already covered it enough.

-Transports (debatable benefit)

Debatable is an understatement.

-Wonders not included in original 7 e.g. Stonehenge

None are actually in the battle maps and several are not even visible on the campaign map, so while they claim this number it's not really finished yet. Pre-alpha.

-Political parties

Okay there's one. But what's the point? It's just another version of, and many would say less interesting approach, to giving depth in terms of family's/family trees. If we had both that would be superior, but they removed one and gave us this new system that is a total joke in terms of how it functions and what it allows you to do in campaign. it's not fun or immersive in the least bit.

-Territorially unified Rome

This is just not a feat, we've had this for 10 years in Rome I mods.

-Ability to select upgrades, specialize armies

Part of army/legion aspect above/same issue see above.

-117 factions plus rebel and slave emergent factions

The number is not impressive given what has already come before, a higher faction cap yes.

-More playable factions: every playable Rome 1 faction (3 Romans, 1 Carthage becomes 3, Gallic tribe, German tribe, Brittanic tribe, Seleucids, Egypt, Greek cities, though DLC, are 3 playable factions (Athens, Sparta, Epirus) and 3 non-playable ones (Syracuse, Rhodes, Pergamon) instead of 1, Parthia) plus Macedon, Pontus and 3 steppe tribes in dlc (and future ‘Northern Tribes’ pack discussed on the grapevine)

Again, mods have long ago unlocked all factions in every game to date, this is nothing new or impressive. They simply unlocked a few more for us on release, not really a big perk considering they hold back content and then make you pay the DLC later. Most of the factions are just well disguised clones of each other. They would already have had different colors and banners. In short, we didn't need them to give us these factions they are already in the game and playable. Those who prefer CA's rosters and faction builds will be happy but you need only glimpse at how much more thorough, detailed, and historically accurate a host of mods will be in the near future to see what's better.

-Playable barbarian factions are real tribes: Iceni, Suebi, Arverni instead of Britannia, Germania and Gaul

Again, a 10 year old thing. RTR, EB, RS, etc, etc, etc.

-Families and civil wars for all factions

All factions always had families. Civil war is not a good feature. It simply objectively doesn't work. It's not even really totally new considering Shogun II's realm divide feature, but I won't argue about it being in a new column as much as a broken column.

-Carthage a republic

-More units (around 3x as many)

Mostly clones of each other. Well diversified and well done armor, clothes, weapon, shield variants, but still just clones. Anyone with the research and the PFM know-how could whip up a mod with real historical units a la EB in short order just by re-arranging all the foundational art work/models/skins in game (really the most well done aspect of Rome II) and it would be a vast improvement on the levy spears and (insert culture name here) slingers that vanilla has currently counting as "more units." Definitely not more units than exist easily here in the TWC modding community for any release to date. AUM mod for Empire alone probably adds that many.

-200 naval units
See above. 200?! lol. I've seen about 6 with different men/equipment standing on their decks.

-Integrated diplomatic AI and campaign AI
Not sure what this means, it sure doesn't work that well... yet.

-More factors affect diplomacy e.g. you were nice to my ally/you had a war with my trade partner
These were in play before, you just didn't' get to see the AI reasoning so transparently. So yes, and no.

-Ability to give general orders to AI-controlled allies e.g. ‘defend here’
Pretty sure you could issue basic orders in shogun II.

-Edicts -Province/region system to aid management
These are part of the same system, which is just a vastly dumbed down version of the huge territories, filled with cities and small towns that we have had since certain Rome I mods and in vanilla since Empire! WHo needs edicts when you could actually engage in a REAL building and economy game while playing the campaign. It's all just childs play, the flashy new flag draped over the corpse of previously real gameplay features.

-New formations, such as shieldwall (but this was in BI) and defensive testudo
There were just as many formations in previous games, not to mention schiltron, and they really worked.

-More city variants and 5 unique cities based on their historical counterparts

REALLY? There are less cities and towns and villages in RII compared to previous releases. In fact, outlying towns and villages are MISSING entirely. The variety is actually quite pathetic. One guy put more unique cities in his mod than an entire paid and professional staff at CA managed to do with 10 years to plan, take others ideas, and prepare. His name is King King, the mod is Third Age Total War. It dwarfs this game.


-Option of Republic or Empire after civil war, not just Empire
Governing philosophies aren't really new. You had these again at least since Empire and they could change.

-Cultural and Economic victories, and victory conditions include allies, client states and satrapies
Since Shogun II

-Full-screen strategic overview map
Yes. Good feature.

-Multiple capture points in cities
Yes, Terrible feature

-CoH-style victory countdown for capturing cities and victory points
??Same as above, it's not a separate feature, its part of the terrible capture points.

-Limited armies intended to give bigger, more decisive battles (and I have found I am fighting larger battles, though some have not)
they gave an army cap in favor of unit caps, unique units (only 1) and recruitment replenishment pools. it's just a dumbed down version of a system that wasn't always perfect but came to work very, very well in mods that are at least 7 years old. It also worked well in Shogun II where there is very little unit spam and more decisive battles (even though they aren't much fun).

-Navigable rivers
Has been in mods forever.

-Sea regions, that can be neutral, hostile, contested, shared or controlled, each with different bonuses and penalties
Again, a dumbed down version of that came before, so you can hardly give it credit as a new feature and leave it at that! It's an abstraction of real gameplay we had before. Before there were sea trade routes to raid and/or defend. Before there were real pirates to content with, not an abstract number floating on a pop up. In Empire they even had bases in the Caribean and would board you, take your women, rum, and your ship. That's real gameplay. This is an excuse for an accountant to be hired as a maker of "fun" pop up info panels.

-Seleucid, Ptolemaic, and Carthaginian Empires broken up into satrapies/client states
A feature available since Empire. And in the case of Rome II very poorly done with Carthage.

-More weather and lighting effects
Since at least Shogun II

-Historical storyline to follow with money rewards
Missions with monetary rewards are not new. And often impossible to adhere to unless you wish to break with history in many cases since you are forced, with the simpification of the campaign map called the "province system" to own contiguous regions in a way that the game will only recognize in a certain pre-determined way. This makes you have to declare war on parties you don't' want to and never would have in history.

-Map effects e.g. clouds
Since Empire....

In short, most of this is present in one game or another, or a revamp of a feature that was really there before but in a different implementation, usually a bad one.

[VINC.XXIII]

I can't go through all of these right now but....
Furthermore the MMORPG style of choosing what traits you want for your armies is childish.They should gain them through other means that you do not 100% control.

Agreed on the whole, post, but the choosable traits are really terrible
I prefered the ancient system, e.g, your general run out: he got a "coward" trait, he charge alone(with his bodyguards ofc) the enemy and suffer massive loss, then he got something like "hardcore fighter" or "bold"...if he succeed in ambush, he got the trait that fit to the situation...etc etc.

[GussieFinkNottle]

Sorry Dago Red, as I usually broadly agree with you, but most of this post is one big error.
Firstly, this is about the Vanilla game, made by CA themselves, not mods, which aren't. Also I am for the final time not giving a judgement on these features. Whether they are good or bad, they exist, so they go into the list

So these points don't apply because they're about mods

-Legions and legion legacy/history
Aspects of this were in RTR AE (I think you mean RS-GFN) from 10 years ago, which had individual historical legions each with their own shield patterns, emblems and banners (even armor in some cases). I don't consider it a wholly new thing. Surely aspects of this in other mods as well.

-Territorially unified Rome

This is just not a feat, we've had this for 10 years in Rome I mods.

-More playable factions: every playable Rome 1 faction (3 Romans, 1 Carthage becomes 3, Gallic tribe, German tribe, Brittanic tribe, Seleucids, Egypt, Greek cities, though DLC, are 3 playable factions (Athens, Sparta, Epirus) and 3 non-playable ones (Syracuse, Rhodes, Pergamon) instead of 1, Parthia) plus Macedon, Pontus and 3 steppe tribes in dlc (and future ‘Northern Tribes’ pack discussed on the grapevine)

Again, mods have long ago unlocked all factions in every game to date, this is nothing new or impressive. They simply unlocked a few more for us on release, not really a big perk considering they hold back content and then make you pay the DLC later. Most of the factions are just well disguised clones of each other. They would already have had different colors and banners. In short, we didn't need them to give us these factions they are already in the game and playable. Those who prefer CA's rosters and faction builds will be happy but you need only glimpse at how much more thorough, detailed, and historically accurate a host of mods will be in the near future to see what's better.

-Playable barbarian factions are real tribes: Iceni, Suebi, Arverni instead of Britannia, Germania and Gaul

Again, a 10 year old thing. RTR, EB, RS, etc, etc, etc.

-Navigable rivers
Has been in mods forever.

-Limited armies intended to give bigger, more decisive battles (and I have found I am fighting larger battles, though some have not)
they gave an army cap in favor of unit caps, unique units (only 1) and recruitment replenishment pools. it's just a dumbed down version of a system that wasn't always perfect but came to work very, very well in mods that are at least 7 years old. It also worked well in Shogun II where there is very little unit spam and more decisive battles (even though they aren't much fun).

besides, with that last one, it wasn't even in S2

Some are errors

-Army naming and banner customisation
Since Empire (possibly before that) you could army name and banner changing was in Shogun FOTS

Incorrect. Empire had no concept of the army as a unit and banners were just your faction flag in FOTS. That is unless you were referring to multiplayer, in which case I shall edit the OP to make clear I mean the campaign

-Cinematic camera without HUD
Aspects of this in Shogun II

No they weren't, the cinematic camera is very different to the 'Delete' and 'Insert' cams in previous games, removing all the clutter from round the sides, allowing panning and zoom, and getting you right down into the action. I was pleasantly surprised by it

-Line of sight
Since shogun II

Just wrong. S2 had hide in forests but no line of sight - you could see men standing behind a mountain

-117 factions plus rebel and slave emergent factions

The number is not impressive given what has already come before, a higher faction cap yes.

It is far more than in any TW game, and far, far more than any Rome 1 mod

-More factors affect diplomacy e.g. you were nice to my ally/you had a war with my trade partner
These were in play before, you just didn't' get to see the AI reasoning so transparently. So yes, and no.

No they weren't. Why do you think we had a numerical breakdown from Emp to S2 if the numbers were wrong

-More city variants and 5 unique cities based on their historical counterparts

REALLY? There are less cities and towns and villages in RII compared to previous releases. In fact, outlying towns and villages are MISSING entirely. The variety is actually quite pathetic. One guy put more unique cities in his mod than an entire paid and professional staff at CA managed to do with 10 years to plan, take others ideas, and prepare. His name is King King, the mod is Third Age Total War. It dwarfs this game.

never before has a TW game had unique cities that resemble their real versions instead of generic cities

-Cultural and Economic victories, and victory conditions include allies, client states and satrapies
Since Shogun II

Plain wrong. Only military victory conditions were in S2, and in FOTS there were some allies objectives to fulfil, as well as, not instead of your own conquests

-More weather and lighting effects
Since at least Shogun II

nope, new lighting particle system

-Historical storyline to follow with money rewards
Missions with monetary rewards are not new.

No but a guided set of historical objectives is

-Map effects e.g. clouds
Since Empire....

more now than ever

Apart from these, the vast majority were criticising features or saying you don't like them: opinion
Whether you like these features, think they are well done or not, they go in the list because they exist, without commentary - so people can decide for themselves what they think of them, not what I tell them or how I assess features.
You have decided you don't like them. That's fine, but that's your opinion, not a fact that would change how I wrote the OP

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

-More historical figures. did not seen one in the game

[IlluminatiRex]

I like how you tried using mods and Total War games that are not Rome I as your justification when he's talking about what ROME II HAS THAT ROME I DOES NOT.

[raest]

this list is so full of idiotic, redundant and irrelevant crap... why didn't you include also stuff like "the main menu looks different", "the options in the graphics menu are different", "characters at the beginning of the game have different names", "units have different eyes and hairstyles", "the exe file is of a different size". i mean, holy ing

btw, the only unique cities are Rome and Carthage

[GussieFinkNottle]

btw, the only unique cities are Rome and Carthage

And Athens and Alexandria and Babylon

[raest]

And Athens and Alexandria and Babylon

no custom battlemap = no unique city. only the 2 previously mentioned have unique tiles. feel free to ask dvk901 for a more detailed analysis

[GussieFinkNottle]

no custom battlemap = no unique city. only the 2 previously mentioned have unique tiles. feel free to ask dvk901 for a more detailed analysis

I wrote the most detailed analysis there is on the unique cities: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...e-city-screens
It involved a lot of research. Believe me, they're accurate (with the exception of Alexandria) and unique

[raest]

I wrote the most detailed analysis there is on the unique cities: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...e-city-screens
It involved a lot of research. Believe me, they're accurate (with the exception of Alexandria) and unique

your analysis is based on pre-release screenshots, his on actual game files. only Rome and Carthage have unique tiles. and your analysis didn't cover Alexandria and Babylon like you originally said, but rather somebody else was quoted "analysing" how poorly made were those 2 cities when compared to Carthage and Rome (and rightfully so). it took 10+ years for CA to implement 2 unique cities, when there are mods for an arguably ancient engine (mtw2) out there that have a dozen

[Dago Red]

Ah yes I was not abiding entirely by the purpose of your thread, but I would still argue that many of those are valid points -- if something was in a previous game that you can plainly see is only updated/repackaged/renamed and renewed for Rome II, I don't see how you can call it a new feature.

Cosmetic things like clouds on the map to customizable features like unit/army renaming and choosing banners (though much improved and more thoroughly implemented in Rome II) are not wholly new features. Perhaps you should indicate whether something is wholly new vs a clear evolution.

On the mod points, you may disregard them given the purposes you set out for here. However, something that was in a mod 10 years ago and finally shows up in a vanilla release now, is no big feat for me and they should at least be noted as decade old features this TW fan base has had access to. Welcome in many cases, true. But it needs to be noted where it came from and how long ago others put sweat and tears into building such features to give CA the inspiration. And there is no doubt -- some haven't been around here long enough and don't know -- but there is no doubt CA knows all about them. When one mod gets 80,000 downloads on the first day of its Gold release, and many CA employees are members here, even active posters before all this RII fallout happened, and have known about those mods just as we have... it's plain to see even without a modding summit.

I give credit to them for learning from, being in awe of and playing those mods, even inviting many modders out to their summit, and showing that they can improve their vanilla releases with these ideas. You must also give credit to where they originated.


ps.

never before has a TW game had unique cities that resemble their real versions instead of generic cities

We depart here because I consider TATW a "TW" game. It is a mod yes, but a TW game to me. I guess we're arguing semantics though, you mean vanilla TW game. You should really check that game out if you never have played it before.

[GussieFinkNottle]

We depart here because I consider TATW a "TW" game. It is a mod yes, but a TW game to me. I guess we're arguing semantics though, you mean vanilla TW game. You should really check that game out if you never have played it before.

Ah yes, I have played it, and enjoyed it, but not as much as the Rome ones, basically because I prefer RTW to M2TW, somehow it feels 'cleaner' - less sluggish and more visually defined
Excellent mod though

[King Xiao]

I love how comparing Rome2 to Rome1 supposedly makes it a good game lol.

[M2TWRocks]

Yeah, but RTW has nostalgia. And nothing, literally nothing, will ever wipe that slate clean for many people who played that game. Even though it had screeching women, unkillable war dogs, archers that could annihilate any heavy infantry unit, head hurlers, Egyptian units that had been extinct for thousands of years, and an AI that was literally retarded compared to R2TW, people will never wash the love out of their eyes for the original RTW.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Yeah, but RTW has nostalgia. And nothing, literally nothing, will ever wipe that slate clean for many people who played that game. Even though it had screeching women, unkillable war dogs, archers that could annihilate any heavy infantry unit, head hurlers, Egyptian units that had been extinct for thousands of years, and an AI that was literally retarded compared to R2TW, people will never wash the love out of their eyes for the original RTW.

My nostalgia is that that I wasted 4 years of my gaming time modding that piece of of a game. What a waste of valuable gaming time.