Byzantines May Need Nerfed

[RuleBritannia]

By turn 206, my campaign has gone well, but Byzantine has become some kind of unstoppable steamroller. They've been at war with most of Europe for about 70 turns now, and upon getting map info from them, I figured out they rule the entire Middle East, most of Eastern Europe up to Denmark, and have numerous armies composed exclusively of Elite troops. Hard Campaign, Medium Battle difficulties. In combat is where I'm thinking they need a small nerf. A single unit of Byzantine bodyguards can run through hundreds of normal units, and the bulk of the soldiers are so heavily armored that nothing can stop them. Myself and the AI are getting royally smacked by them with no end in sight; if only one group of "Scoutali" spearmen can kill several hundred of my or the AI's troops, and Byzantine fields upwards of 20-30 full-stacked armies across Europe of almost entirely Scoutali, no level of tactics or the units available to any of the other factions, mine included, can defeat them. I gave up on my playthrough after losing several of my cities in just one turn to Byzantine armies I had no chance of stopping. Maybe lower their armor or increase the upkeep of their better units; I'm glad Byzantine is realistically stronger than normal, but at this point, no faction has any chance of defeating their units.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

That actually sounds like a fun campaign, can you upload the save and tell us what submods and settings you have so that I may try it out?

[RuleBritannia]

That actually sounds like a fun campaign, can you upload the save and tell us what submods and settings you have so that I may try it out?

Yeah, don't get me wrong. It's really great to see that SS improves the AI and makes it do things even Darth can't make it do with even more sophisticated engines. It's just I don't think they got this empire fairly. It's because of how strong their units are, and it's probably my own fault for picking Venice, who has to rely primarily on strong mercenaries. Even with high-level crossbowmen, handgunners, and the like, everything seems to just bounce off the Scoutaloi (or however you spell it). And again, their General's Bodyguard apparently trounce any European variants. It's gotten to a point where they're #1 on every stat, have endless merchants, endless armies, and pretty much are about to run Europe. My Venicean "Empire" is the second largest right now, just ahead of the Moors who own all of Spain, half of France, and all of Africa, but I don't stand a chance when there's literally no hope of victory; I'm not terrible at Total War, I can win some pretty tough battles, singleplayer or multiplayer. It's just, in this case, I can't win, not because of tactics, but because I statistically cannot build anything to match the Byzantines, and handgunners, who have higher missile attack than crossbowmen, even, can't kill more than 9-10 with two full volleys of gunfire. I'm not sure how guaranteed defeat is fun; but, if you want to recreate it, play as Venice, Hard Campaign, Medium Battle. Only submod I use is RBAI. I use Savage AI and Real Recruitment.

[Spanks]

The "overpowered" nature of Byzantium unit early-mid is because they are so disadvantaged strategically but they are definitely not "overpowered" late game with limited late games units. Your problem is Unit production of elite units spirals out of control for the AI as the game moves on and your using Savage AI so they are using these units.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

I'm not sure how guaranteed defeat is fun; but, if you want to recreate it, play as Venice, Hard Campaign, Medium Battle. Only submod I use is RBAI. I use Savage AI and Real Recruitment.

Recreating it will be a lot harder than you just uploading the file attached to your post.

The "overpowered" nature of Byzantium unit early-mid is because they are so disadvantaged strategically but they are definitely not "overpowered" late game with limited late games units. Your problem is Unit production of elite units spirals out of control for the AI as the game moves on and your using Savage AI so they are using these units.

This is exactly the problem, all of their units are above avarage of what europeans get, even the basic soldiers are better and they can spam masses of them, that is where the issue comes from.

[RuleBritannia]

Recreating it will be a lot harder than you just uploading the file attached to your post.

I had hoped to upload it, but Steam decided to itself over with glitches and I had to reinstall it. Lost my games and their saves.

This is exactly the problem, all of their units are above avarage of what europeans get, even the basic soldiers are better and they can spam masses of them, that is where the issue comes from.

Agreed. Again, I'm very happy the AI's done this. In the situation I'm in, not even on the highest difficulty, I think anyone would have their arses kicked. That's impressive AI work for sure since, in my years of Total War and numerous mods, I've never seen the AI form some kind of steamroller empire of gigantic proportions, something even some players can't do. However, the Scoutaloi they field en-masse in the late era are worth 1,000 a piece with 280-something upkeep. However, their stats are far ahead of most European units, and when upgraded, crossbows and handguns can't pierce their armor. This isn't bad; it's realistic. The Byzantines have strong line infantry, but can't field many. However, the issue comes from the fact that the AI gets financial buffs and merchant buffs, which the Byzantines, since they possess very superior units to most of Europe's armies, use to their advantage. Numbers are no longer an issue when the AI doesn't have to worry about money. So now, by turn 208, they've stomped me AND the AI. They've knocked the other factions into financial misery, they've made a joke out of my best units and blockaded my entire Venician economy, and it looks like, had my saves not been lost, Byzantine would've ended up ruling all of Europe. The fact that even with very powerful factions out there, and myself as a power, that the Byzantines could just walk all over us with armies almost entirely composed of Elite-level cavalry and Scoutaloi, is the problem, in my opinion. Maybe SS 7.0 should reduce some of the scripts given to the Byzantine AI?

[Navajo Joe]

This can sometimes happen, depends on how the dice rolls, if you know what I mean. In all my years of playing SS, I have seen Lithuania and Denmark with large kingdoms in Europe. I have seen the Moors control all of Africa, Iberia, France and Italy and Fatties control everything in the south and east of the map. Its great to see the AI having achieved this success and its good you have an adversary like the Byzantines, get every horsearcher you can lay your hands on. You also have X-Bows, jolly deadly against cavarly

[T r a n c e]

It's late or early campaign? In my late campaigns with various factions, the byzies never seem to best the Turks or Hungary and end miserably.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

Thats because they start in an awful situation.

[ShadowKiller2000]

They should run into problems even vs. the other AI once plenty of Jihads get called on them. That should direct the attention East and away from you. Try to get the generals BG to chase a unit of light cavalry across the map for a bit until they tier out. They have poor heat stats and will tire faster than your cavalry. The Roman units will only out-class yours for a moderate amount of time, and you will get superior units over time. Use diplomacy and ally with as many enemies of the Romans as you can. It should help to keep them distracted. You can also go raiding with 1-2 stacks, sack cities and castles behind their front lines by sea raids Viking style. Destroy the buildings and use those funds to increase your armies. You can wear them down over time, it just takes effort.

[Kataphractos]

Byzantine bodyguards are stupidly strong, but the rest of their roster is fine.

[Banderium]

Off the top of my head, the early era Byzantines have the following strengths:

1. Heavy cavalry have low upkeep, good combat stats.
2. Units of all types are well armored, with good morale. Generally low upkeep as well.
3. Byzantine cities and castles are rich, have high population, and are flourishing with trade.
4. Surrounded by weak neighbors with weak economies and weak unit rosters.
5. Early Byzantine roster has no weaknesses. All unit types are well represented.

The AI factions in Eastern Europe lack the ability to form a coalition against the Byzantines.

- Hungary is too busy fighting Venice, HRE, Cumans, and Kiev.

- Poland is too busy fighting HRE, Lithuania, Kiev, and Novgorod.

In the Middle East:
-The Turks in the Middle East usually get crushed within a few turns.

- The Fatimids have a very strong economy, but have weak units that are far inferior to their Byzantine counterparts.

- The K-Shah comes too late, and are usually more interested in eating the Fatimids.

And Western Europe:

- Just like in history: Doesn't care one bit.

The problem is that the Byzantines are really strong, and that AI factions tend to ignore the elephant in the room. They continue fighting and weakening each other even when the Byzantines are at war with them.

It is completely up to the player to stop the Byzantines. If you think you can fight the Byzantine armies to a standstill, you are completely wrong. You need to take their cities and their castles to stop the flow of troops.

Take the Greek provinces, seize Constantinople and line the Bosporus with your ships to prevent Anatolian reinforcements from marching across.

[RuleBritannia]

Off the top of my head, the early era Byzantines have the following strengths:

1. Heavy cavalry have low upkeep, good combat stats.
2. Units of all types are well armored, with good morale. Generally low upkeep as well.
3. Byzantine cities and castles are rich, have high population, and are flourishing with trade.
4. Surrounded by weak neighbors with weak economies and weak unit rosters.
5. Early Byzantine roster has no weaknesses. All unit types are well represented.

The AI factions in Eastern Europe lack the ability to form a coalition against the Byzantines.

- Hungary is too busy fighting Venice, HRE, Cumans, and Kiev.

- Poland is too busy fighting HRE, Lithuania, Kiev, and Novgorod.

In the Middle East:
-The Turks in the Middle East usually get crushed within a few turns.

- The Fatimids have a very strong economy, but have weak units that are far inferior to their Byzantine counterparts.

- The K-Shah comes too late, and are usually more interested in eating the Fatimids.

And Western Europe:

- Just like in history: Doesn't care one bit.

The problem is that the Byzantines are really strong, and that AI factions tend to ignore the elephant in the room. They continue fighting and weakening each other even when the Byzantines are at war with them.

It is completely up to the player to stop the Byzantines. If you think you can fight the Byzantine armies to a standstill, you are completely wrong. You need to take their cities and their castles to stop the flow of troops.

Take the Greek provinces, seize Constantinople and line the Bosporus with your ships to prevent Anatolian reinforcements from marching across.

That's how I beat them early on. As Venice, they declared war on me around turn 15. They took one of my Eastern cities then sieged my capital, though I beat them there, then destroyed an entire stack of troops within a navy using my superior ships. I made peace and thought by then the AI, since it was Savage's, would be more hesitant to attack me. Without map information, I thought all this time, with the armies of Europe expanding all over the place and with the strong alliances I had, that Byzantine had gotten weak. Then, after getting map info from Byzantine itself, finally, I realized that the entire Middle East, all of Russia, all of Egypt, and half of Eastern Europe belonged to them. This isn't a case of "The AI's too good!", though. I love the fact that the AI can get this strong. It's just, after doing several tests, I figured it out it's not because the Byzantines are smart, or that the Byzantine AI has to use smart tactics to win; Scoutaloi, with basic armor upgrades, cannot be killed by handguns, the strongest infantry-used armor-piercing weapon in the game. Heavy Infantry from other European nations loses in a fight to them most of the time, mainly because of how high their armor is. Though it's been an acknowledged issue that cavalry charges are too strong for both the player and AI in SS 6.4, the Byzantine cavalry seems to be even more overpowered than the rest, to the point where a single unit of Bodyguard can often slaughter several hundred non-spear troops without taking a single casualty. Again, Byzantine having strong units is perfectly fine. They're expensive, have reasonable upkeep, and are meant to be quality-over-quantity in their usage. The issue is, though, that the Byzantines get immense scripting, financial help, and free upkeep (possibly) as the AI, more scripting/aid than other AI factions. What results is an Eastern Roman Empire not on the verge of collapse, but one that fields "Clone Armies" of Scoutaloi and elite cavalry in dozens of stacks. This results in an unfair challenge for both myself and for the AI; it's a boring, unfair game if you know that every single time the Byzantines will become an unstoppable steamroller unless you eradicate every last province they have early on, which is usually impossible alone due to their size, and due to the fact that the other nations' AIs usually love fighting amongst themselves whilst running away from Byzantine. This has resulted in some ridiculous situations; the Byzantines actually made the Papal States their clien state, pretty much ruling the Catholic Church despite being at war with literally every nation in the game!

[RC-1136]

Yes! Another anti-Byzantine thread! I'm in!

First of all: I like them very much. They are well designed (except some units like their generals) thought through and fun to play.
But they are overpowered. I can't help it. But historically at least Latin knights should have at least a chance against their cavalry. But even their light cavalry can basically used as a very formidable shock force. And they alway use a lot (a lot!) of them. It can't be that I charge a unit of Athanatoi with high medieval latin knights and know that I won't even stand a bit of a chance in the melee afterwards. And there might be a lot if myths regarding the Byzantine cataphracts. But making them stronger then western knights can't really be justified.

Don't get me wrong: I got just attacked in my latest campaign a few days ago by my former allies and best friends, the Byzzies, and have had a lot of fun fighting back. But I expected to be inferior in infantry and cavalry. And I'm playing a Catholic faction! At least my knights should be a danger to them ...

But right now my archers, crossbowmen and artillery are. Ribaults and bombards canister shots ftw!

[Basileus of Byzantium]

With some text editing you could limit their soldiers. Make it so that the recruitment pool for the Empire's professional units is lower than what it is now. Might wanna edit the Scoutatoi to have their initial armor rating lowered to at least "leather lamellar". Historically the bulk of the Empire's infantry in the 12th century had leather armor or none at all. It was only at their apex that they could produce large amounts of mail for common infantry soldiers. If you don't know what the armor ratings are you can go on this website: http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/RR_RC_Guide_2.html
While not all the units in Stainless Steel have been fully RR/RC'ed yet their armor values do follow the armor values displayed on the Master Armor Table.

You should also change the numbers of the Scholarii. Cataphracts composed only a small of the Empire's army during this time period so their numbers ingame should be set around the same as the feudal knights of European factions. Their charge could be lowered along with the damage they dish out with both their lance and mace.