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Thread: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

  1. #1

    Default A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Can you even go past the first 20 game turns after patch 2?

    I expect some of you will think this is funny. Prove me wrong but I sincerely believe this is a real challenge, on two conditions: 1. You do not start a war first. 2. You only autoresolve battles.

    Quite a few people put Let’s plays on YouTube showing how they can beat the game. Nearly all have something in common: attacking too early, before the AI is ready. There are only a few post-patch 2 Let’s plays on YouTube. This videoclip



    is one I made from a game post-patch 2, a patch that made some fixes to the campaign AI. I could never get past game turn 15 or so. This short Let’s play (the campaign part is only six and a half minutes) mainly shows the most important moves by the AI. The patch 2 AI was meant to improve the campaign and make it more difficult and this is really the case under one condition: not invading first. Most players very familiar with the Total War series tend to invade as soon as possible, even more if they are in a blitz challenge, attacking from game turn 1.

    The campaign AI has to deal with a large number of factions and to make decisions for all in a short time with a program that is much much smaller than the human brain. It takes a few turns for it to settle, and sometimes the AI has hard limits not to attack before the first 4 turns or the first 10 turns. Expert human players are intuitively aware of that and attack as soon as possible. The second “problem” is that the AI will not attack the human player unless several measures such as military strength, production, number of settlements, units per length of faction border, comparisons of alliances, etc have been determined over a few turns and are in some cumulative favour for the AI. This can mean that the campaign AI will not attack unless it considers itself twice as strong in at least some of these parameters. By attacking the AI before the AI is ready to attack the human player, you give yourself an early advantage.

    After a few conquests, let’s say a couple of settlements won in the first 3-4 game turns before the AI can react, the human payer may become the strongest faction in this game. That is serious, perhaps more so than in other games in the Total War series. Once disadvantaged to the point that it is not longer confidently stronger, every AI-controlled faction will tend to go on the defense (i.e. it will not attack the human player’s unguarded settlements) and eventually go into deep-defense, which means it will become practically completely passive. The players who complain that the CAI is completely passive, should start to worry about how they play the game. It is a little bit like playing a game of chess when your opponent has not yet arrived. It does not matter who your opponent is supposed to be, and whether you “beat” him, if he was not actually present. The names – hard, very hard, legendary - and settings mean nothing, if the player has broken the AI. Playing a lifeless campaign against a passive AI is not all that exciting. And when playtesting, think of the average player, of 90% of the gamers out there, who will not start with the intention of breaking the AI from game start. Maybe think how much enjoyment are they going to get from being beaten within 15 game turns on every campaign they start, because no one has really playtested this game for the average player.

    Any of you who think the AI is not good enough, if you really want a challenge, you can play this game even on easy, just let the AI attack you first. Then you know that the AI has put itself together to the point where the developers think it can be a challenge to you. So, only invade or declare wars after the campaign AI has attacked you. Only autoresolve battles. See if you can win or even if you can just capture 2-3 settlements, with which faction and post how you did it.

  2. #2
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey of Villehardouin View Post
    Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy? -snipped for brevity
    Interesting. I`ve played Legendary, but it never attacks. I am not an attacking kind of guy, I like to turtle , but the AI won`t attack. So I suppose I`ll be waiting a long time, just like when I tried on Very hard.

    Don`t see why I should play on Easy since the CAI will probably take even longer to decide when to attack.

    Also, all that seems needless, especially when CA managed to get the CAI in Shogun 2 gunning for your thoat almost immediately if you just sat around. You could be destroyed in about 4 turns on Legendary. They could just put in the same parameters that that had instead of `gaming the game` to get a challenge.

  3. #3

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    who plays their first game on easy these days anyway? maybe they got it backwards lol easy = new hard and vice versa...

    edit: btw, awesome video. your graphix is bad though or maybe that's how the game looks without mods?
    Last edited by Red River; October 27, 2013 at 09:34 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    People have tried this, and even without building a single army the AI will not attack for dozens if not hundreds of turns. I usually give the AI a few turns to finish its full stacks but it will sit them inside its cities forever.

    Your claim is pointless. Obviously the AI can defend its only city well and obviously it's hard to gain an advantage when you're playing with the intelligence of an AI player. If you only start with 1 city you will never be able to beat another 1 city faction because the defender has a huge advantage, it doesn't take a good CAI to do that. That's not how the game is balanced and putting extreme restrictions on the player does not justify the CAI's unreasonable behavior.

  5. #5
    The Useless Member's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Play as Rome.

  6. #6

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    I'm sceptical, but I'll give it a 30 minute play now and report back with results.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Is this video serious? Sparta/Athens are scripted to attack Epirus in the start of the game, it happens every single campaign.. It doesn't mean CAI is more aggressive than in the other TW games.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Well, I must say, I am quite shocked to say the least, OP is correct. Turn 9 and I have Spartan/Athenian armies encroaching on both Larissa and Apollonia, and they're bloody hard to hurt on auto-resolve. But, of course, this is Epirus we're talking about. We'll see what its like for other facts.

    I also noticed that elephants don't get wiped on auto-resolve, which is interesting.

    Somewhat interesting.

  9. #9

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    An interesting challenge. The biggest part I see is that autoresolve lies, a lot... still, that does make Rome a lot less powerful when I have to rely on autoresolves, since it never seems to get just how STRONG Legionaires are. Hmm...

  10. #10

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by archone View Post
    Your claim is pointless. Obviously the AI can defend its only city well and obviously it's hard to gain an advantage when you're playing with the intelligence of an AI player. If you only start with 1 city you will never be able to beat another 1 city faction because the defender has a huge advantage, it doesn't take a good CAI to do that. That's not how the game is balanced and putting extreme restrictions on the player does not justify the CAI's unreasonable behavior.
    I do not see why it is wrong that the AI can defend its only city well. It also attacks a lot, from both sea and land. What else should it do? The campaign AI makes alliance decisions, invasion decisions and defense decisions. There is nothing else as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red River View Post
    who plays their first game on easy these days anyway? maybe they got it backwards lol easy = new hard and vice versa...

    edit: btw, awesome video. your graphix is bad though or maybe that's how the game looks without mods?
    Actually it's about the same whether on easy, normal or hard. As for the graphics, not sure, maybe I have a bad taste in graphics options.
    Last edited by Geoffrey of Villehardouin; October 28, 2013 at 12:41 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Am I playing a different game?! I'm playing as Rome on Easy, and I'm struggling for my very existence! The Nasimones, Mareaesltys (or whatever. the grey people who wipe out the Carthiginians), Averni, Rigula, and Nova Carthago have all declared war, not to mention the other two which I forgot, and I'm literally shuffling my now elite Legions around the italian "boot" trying to stave off invasion after invasion. I finally snagged the upper hand from the Averni by sending a Legion to sack Massilia, but I'm still in the middle of a very hot fight to the south. In the north, I only won because I put my armies in defensive stances and massacred the Averni/Picts as they poured through the openings in my forts, but other than that I'm in multiple pitched battles. Half my campaign map is covered in little crossed daggers.

    Sending a Legion to raid the out of North Africa worked for time, but now the enemy is ridiculously powerful. To make matters worse, they've all allied, so my city garrisons and such are pitted against a multinational force, often from both the land and sea. Compounding my problems are the massive slave populations as a result of looting the North African coast before the city itself rebels. (Whoops) I can't lower taxes because I need to support my military, and I can't figure out how to free the slaves besides slaughtering them on the battlefield when they revolt.

    I'm already over extended, and I've just barely pushed north out of the Italian boot. It's insane!

    That being said, I've never been so attached to a total war game. Every battle is for keeps. It's great


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  12. #12

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    As Red River said: easy = the new hard. It seems that on the harder levels by blitzing you ruin your game.

  13. #13

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    To the OP: Try Shogun 2.

  14. #14
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Hmm, will have to give it a try (Of course, I find autoresolves too boring). I usually play on VH/Legendary, but last weekend I had a go at an MPC where the AI was set to hard. AI's were still largely passive (same as on VH) and I noticed that their armies were weaker than the ones I see on VH. So, there's that bit. Will have to check on Easy, I guess

  15. #15
    Civis
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    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    OP, I donīt think your experiment works. In my current campaign (patch 5, vanilla, vh, Pontus), I did the following:

    I disbanded all starting armies and navies and only kept two generals - both as Pontic Royal Cavalry. I made peace with Cappadocia. Afterwards, I researched the technologies required for Hoplites, Citizen Cav and Archers. Then I build the necessary buildings. Then I recruited a full stack of hoplites archers and cav. Finally, I guess on turn 15 or so, I declared war on Cappadocia.

    By then, I had 10 trade agreements, no war and three defensive allies. No AI faction declared war on me before or after my first expansion.

    I have also played as Egypt and had ten factions declare war on me on the first three turns.

  16. #16

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    Hmm, will have to give it a try (Of course, I find autoresolves too boring). I usually play on VH/Legendary, but last weekend I had a go at an MPC where the AI was set to hard. AI's were still largely passive (same as on VH) and I noticed that their armies were weaker than the ones I see on VH. So, there's that bit. Will have to check on Easy, I guess
    Of course autoresolves are boring. However, by not autoresolving you make the challenge much easier. The battle AI is in my opinion worse and most expert players can beat it easily.

    To properly test the campaign AI one should just check the decisions it is meant to make: decisions to invade, defend and alliances. The campaign AI is credible, if you are willing to play against it on equal terms. Letting the AI invade first is a bit like letting a chess AI make the first move. It is not much to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by AusHaching View Post
    OP, I donīt think your experiment works. In my current campaign (patch 5, vanilla, vh, Pontus), I did the following:

    I disbanded all starting armies and navies and only kept two generals - both as Pontic Royal Cavalry. I made peace with Cappadocia. Afterwards, I researched the technologies required for Hoplites, Citizen Cav and Archers. Then I build the necessary buildings. Then I recruited a full stack of hoplites archers and cav. Finally, I guess on turn 15 or so, I declared war on Cappadocia.

    By then, I had 10 trade agreements, no war and three defensive allies. No AI faction declared war on me before or after my first expansion.

    I have also played as Egypt and had ten factions declare war on me on the first three turns.
    Possibly it will not work with some campaigns, based on the differences between the Pontus and Egypt campaigns you saw. Was the Egypt campaign also on vh?

    The key is not to attack first. Unless the AI invades, there is no indication that you are actually playing against the AI.

  17. #17

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    So is this actually correct then that somehow CA got Legendary and Easy mode mixed up?
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  18. #18

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by darthsloth74 View Post
    So is this actually correct then that somehow CA got Legendary and Easy mode mixed up?
    Haha, I can just imagine a complete newcomer to the Total War series deciding to play on "Easy" so he can get a simple start...

    ... prepare for the bomb, haha! xD
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  19. #19

    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    Quote Originally Posted by darthsloth74 View Post
    So is this actually correct then that somehow CA got Legendary and Easy mode mixed up?
    No. This thread is all about limiting what the player can do, in this case it's "you can't fight battles, only autoresolve" and "you can't initiate a war". Because of this the player can't expand much at all without constantly dismissing all his armies in an attempt to coax the next AI into a war.

    Higher AI difficulties will ironically make this type of challenge easier because the AIs will build up units a lot faster and atleast seem to be a bit less passive in diplomacy so it'll be a lot easier to get into a war. The great enemy here is the turn limit, not the AI players.

  20. #20
    TW Bigfoot
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    Default Re: A new challenge: Can you win a Rome II campaign on easy?

    im not suprised.

    The 'basic AI' is the same for each difficulty level, take the battle AI out of the equation and the CAI isnt doing that bad really on the map.
    Its still has its utterly insane moments, still puts fleets in the middle of the sea to starve and die, still sails away sometimes when you march on a city..
    the difficulty ratings are just, artificial challenges. i.e on VHard, you need 1000 more gold than you needed on normal.

    Ive been saying this for years, we need a difficulty system that actaully works..

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