Nomadic DLC and return of Cantabrian Circle

[TomR199]

Just noticed in custom battles they have cantabrian circle. I would like to hear your opinions of Rome 2's version of this tactic and how it performs in your games. Thanks!

[Kinjo]

Its a great tactic to use against foot skirmishers.

[Dunadd]

Always seemed very stupid to me in the original Rome Total War that riding round and round in circles would increase cavalry's defence against archery. Makes no sense whatsoever. Hoping it's just a form of skirmishing without moving as much in Rome II.

[Kinjo]

Everybody knows moving targets are easier to hit right ...

The tactic was usually employed against infantry and bowmen. The constant movement of the horsemen gave them an advantage against the less mobile infantry and made them harder to target by the enemy's missile troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabrian_circle

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Anyone remember how in that crappy movie Kingdom of Heaven the jihadist cavalry were doing cantabrian circle in camp even long before the enemy appeared? That must mean that either the power of the cantrabrian circle can be stored for an undisclosed amount of time or that they were paranoid about drone strikes.

[big_feef]

Always seemed very stupid to me in the original Rome Total War that riding round and round in circles would increase cavalry's defence against archery. Makes no sense whatsoever. Hoping it's just a form of skirmishing without moving as much in Rome II.

Of course it would seem stupid to someone who obviously doesn't understand the whole point of the maneuver. The Cantabrian circle was used for centuries by mounted skirmishers for a very simple reason: because it was very effective. It's effectiveness was because it made mounted skirmishers able to fire a continuous stream of missiles into a formation of infantry or heavy cavalry instead of volleys; and it's mobility made counter-fire from those less mobile units much less effective. But yeah, being used to effectively destroy less mobile enemies from before this game's timeline up to the time of the Mongols and Timurids makes this maneuver 'stupid'...

[Dunadd]

Everybody knows moving targets are easier to hit right ...

if you have a big mass of horse-archers riding round and round in circles in the same place, how exactly could you miss? Fire into that huge mass and you'll hit one of them. Firing at a large body of troops is not the same as firing at a single enemy. That should all be pretty obvious.

Where is the historical evidence it made it harder for foot archers to hit the horsemen in cantabrian? Just a claim in wikipedia with no source in the wikipedia post for the claim is not exactly impressive evidence.

[Dunadd]

Of course it would seem stupid to someone who obviously doesn't understand the whole point of the maneuver. The Cantabrian circle was used for centuries by mounted skirmishers for a very simple reason: because it was very effective. It's effectiveness was because it made mounted skirmishers able to fire a continuous stream of missiles into a formation of infantry or heavy cavalry instead of volleys; and it's mobility made counter-fire from those less mobile units much less effective. But yeah, being used to effectively destroy less mobile enemies from before this game's timeline up to the time of the Mongols and Timurids makes this maneuver 'stupid'...

I didn't say Cantabrian Circle was stupid, just that it increasing the defence against archery of the unit carrying it out in the original Rome Total War made no sense and that making it do that was stupid. I would have no problem with it increasing a unit's rate of fire while using it.

[big_feef]

I didn't say Cantabrian Circle was stupid, just that it increasing the defence against archery of the unit carrying it out in the original Rome Total War made no sense and that making it do that was stupid. I would have no problem with it increasing a unit's rate of fire while using it.

OK, you're obviously grossly misinformed and refusing to accept simple facts. First off, a Cantabrian circle is not 'a big mass of horse-archers'; I really don't know where you came up with that one... Secondly, unlike in a video game, in real life these guys aren't running in a static circle; they're in a very fast moving ring that's firing a constant stream of missiles on your position. I watched a demonstration of this maneuver as performed by modern day Mongols (a video of that should be up on youtube) and was amazed by the skill required; not just in horsemanship, but also in archery.

[TomR199]

it seems skirmish doesnt work well with it on, and they need to be in range prior to activating the ability or they just run around and dont shoot

[TomR199]

also parthia and other factions horse skirmishers were overlooked as far as giving them the same ability.

[Anibal at portas]

why the parthian cavalry not have cantabrian circle or other cavalry tactics?,why the cavalry parthia is very bad?,the parthian cavalry archers destroyed armies of seleucia and rome in the famous battle of carrae and in this game parthia not can form a empire.this must be changed and improved.

[krisslanza]

if you have a big mass of horse-archers riding round and round in circles in the same place, how exactly could you miss? Fire into that huge mass and you'll hit one of them. Firing at a large body of troops is not the same as firing at a single enemy. That should all be pretty obvious.

Where is the historical evidence it made it harder for foot archers to hit the horsemen in cantabrian? Just a claim in wikipedia with no source in the wikipedia post for the claim is not exactly impressive evidence.

The circle is more like a big O. The horse archers in that outer ring of the O, with the middle being nothing but an empty spot.

Given the range most archers would engage at, it's rather difficult to make a precise shot into the thin 'ring' - you're far more likely to land short, or hit the middle. In contrast, firing into a large square formation of units? Much, much easier.

[Riekopo]

Shouldn't at least Parthia have this as well?

[August]

Anyone remember how in that crappy movie Kingdom of Heaven the jihadist cavalry were doing cantabrian circle in camp even long before the enemy appeared? That must mean that either the power of the cantrabrian circle can be stored for an undisclosed amount of time or that they were paranoid about drone strikes.

As a side-note, you should watch the CoH: Director's Cut. It's an almost entirely different movie.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Well, speaking as an archer and outdoorsman, rather than a chair-bound poindexter of the internet, I'm impressed with the models for the composite bows, and the unique Scythian quivers and arrow nocks, though the fletching is off. Regarding the cantabrian circle, it wasn't the riding in the circle itself that was the definitive factor for protection, but the mobility of the circle as a whole, and its ability to, as a circle, ride outside of enemy missile range. Effective use of massed clout shooting would decimate the circle -if it weren't mobile. This ability for the riders of the circle to move as a whole unit out of missile range, coupled with the extended power and range of their composite bows, was what offered them protection. The never ending flights of arrows from the rotating circle is what offered them deadlier, more accurate fire. In game, the Scythian's archery isn't deadly enough, imo. Agreed on the Director's cut for Kingdom of Heaven. The theatrical release was pure .

[TuranianGhazi]

Very cogent points on Cantabrian Circle, Captain Arrrgh!

I have somewhat of a problem with the "Cantabrian" adjective in front. Cantabri certainly perfected in Iberian warfare... but most horse archers, including the Parni, later Parthians, used the same Horse Archer Circle tactic.

There was another Circle that would completely encircle a unit on all sides and then rain arrow volleys. It would be cool of Horse Archer Circle could be set upon a unit, they form around that unit but still Skirmish away. Otherwise, a stationary Circle isn't very helpful. So a Steppe Encircle should be an ability. I'll try to mess with adding a new ability and guiding units to do what I want... but I'd probably fail since it involves scripting, I guess.

Another note I agree with you Captain Arrrgh! is that in R2 vanilla unmodded game, all Nomadic Tribes archery/horse archery isn't deadly enough.

@Anibal at Portas
I agree with you that Parthians should have Cantabrian Circle and any other ability, same as any other Nomadic Tribe.

However, I disagree with you that Parthians were the best horse archers. Nomads were still the best horse archers. Parthians were very decent horse archers, better than most Eastern horse archers, but still a tad worse, though not drastic, than other steppe Nomads. Parthian claim to fame is really their Cataphracts, heaviest by far among both Eastern and Steppe peoples.

Now why Parthians aren't the best horse archers? One simple fact to show that Parthians ALWAYS believed that their chief enemy were other Nomads and not even Rome was that Parthians regularly sent divisions to protect against Nomadic incursions, even when Rome was close or at Ctesiphon. This just underscores how much the Arsacids correctly identified that just like their Parni tribe overran the great cities of Khorasan, so too could another, more hungry and expansionist nomadic power from the steppes.

[JaM]

Cantabrian circle was used to provide constant javelin throws at enemy formation, It had nothing to do with own security against missiles.. Whole point was to keep horses moving, so they cannot be catched by heavy infantry... anyway such tactics would be quite inefective agaisnt any skirmishers that can saturate area with projectiles...

and for anybody wondering how Ancient (or practically any cavalry) actually fought, here is quite useful link:

http://www.romanarmy.info/cavalry5_c..._infantry.html

[Kinjo]

Regardless of your opinion (nobody in particular) it works as a good tactic for the horse archers to deal with longer range slingers in game. Also there is the new "heavy shot" ability which increases the damage at the cost of range, this seems to help against hopolites and other heavy armored units.