Pike on Pike combat stooged again?

**Fallen Phalangite** · October 18, 2013, 01:30 PM

I don't recall anything like this ever happening before Patch 5. I've tested this using other, lesser pike units, as well as generals units without experience, with similar outcomes. In one instance, a full strength unit was wiped out in only 14 seconds, just because it wasn't in proper formation.

At least it's nice to see they're holding formation and actually fighting like pike units should.

**Fallen Phalangite** · October 18, 2013, 01:36 PM

Whoops, didn't link the video properly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6BpNt6sQo

**Hoplite of Ilis** · October 18, 2013, 01:41 PM

Yes! Finaly, holding formation! Could this be a total war game?.... + reputation for you. You made my day.

**Fallen Phalangite** · October 18, 2013, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hoplite of Ilis

Yes! Finaly, holding formation! Could this be a total war game?.... + reputation for you. You made my day.

Unfortunately, it would appear that hoplite phalanx's still don't live up to expectation. While they do manage to maintain formation (most of the time), individual combat still occurs between soldiers at the front of each phalanx.

**Micromoron** · October 18, 2013, 02:02 PM

Well bro individual combat occured between phalanxes (at least pikes) in reallife too, you can't expect a realistic phalanx without individual combat (like the invisible wall of death in rome 1)

**Hoplite of Ilis** · October 18, 2013, 02:31 PM

Micromoron Real life pikemen meant ignoring the pikes as if they're not there? I guess CA forgot to put a sensor at the edge of what they used as pikes - if they did so. So what's the deal friend? Wall of death or invisible pikes? We're talking macedonian phalanx frontal attack. History says death. History also says five rows lowered the pikes. I'd like to see the lucky one to make it through.

**Fallen Phalangite** · October 18, 2013, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Micromoron

Well bro individual combat occured between phalanxes (at least pikes) in reallife too, you can't expect a realistic phalanx without individual combat (like the invisible wall of death in rome 1)

Perhaps in we're considering a phalanx vs a non-phalanx unit., but we're talking phalanx vs phalanx, then I expect both sides to fight in that formation. And even then, they would still need to break through the phalanx before individual combat occurred; not just individual combat starting at the point of contact.

**Hoplite of Ilis** · October 18, 2013, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fallen Phalangite

Unfortunately, it would appear that hoplite phalanx's still don't live up to expectation. While they do manage to maintain formation (most of the time), individual combat still occurs between soldiers at the front of each phalanx.

I don't think it ever will. At least not in rome 2. I don't like the animations used. Just a somewhat overhand(?) finishing blow. And on top of that, it's not offensive. However, a mod fixed that - but I haven't tried it yet. I really expected to see proper formation fighting... What to say.... I hate and love this game at the same time.

**Modestus** · October 18, 2013, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by Fallen Phalangite

I don't recall anything like this ever happening before Patch 5. I've tested this using other, lesser pike units, as well as generals units without experience, with similar outcomes. In one instance, a full strength unit was wiped out in only 14 seconds, just because it wasn't in proper formation.

At least it's nice to see they're holding formation and actually fighting like pike units should.

Jesus Christ that looks pathetic and this is an improvement? Unbelievable.

**jamreal18** · October 18, 2013, 06:26 PM

Its way too fast!

I want to see phalanx against swordsmen and if they now use their long pikes...

**Americanus Supremus** · October 18, 2013, 06:53 PM

Aside from the fighting being way to fast, it looked good to me. I think if the battles were slowed smaller problems like filling the ranks will be less and less of a problem. From the video that is the only problem I saw, men were dying so fast their replacements were getting confused on which hole to fill thus them running all over the formation unrealistically.

**Roboute Guilliman** · October 18, 2013, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Americanus Supremus

Aside from the fighting being way to fast, it looked good to me. I think if the battles were slowed smaller problems like filling the ranks will be less and less of a problem. From the video that is the only problem I saw, men were dying so fast their replacements were getting confused on which hole to fill thus them running all over the formation unrealistically.

It looks good, but the problem is we got a thorax pikeman unit obliterating a companion pikemen unit. This should never happen 1 on 1...

**Americanus Supremus** · October 18, 2013, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by Roboute Guilliman

It looks good, but the problem is we got a thorax pikeman unit obliterating a companion pikemen unit. This should never happen 1 on 1...

Quite right, didn't notice the unit types. Balancing issues abound. Just had another freeze my entire computer moment going into a small battle with the Cappadocians, turn 3. What a wonderful mess we have... Oh and I just noticed the General of my second army has no name lol

**McCarronXLD** · October 18, 2013, 08:47 PM

While the balance is poor and CA's idea of battles are way too fast, the formation holds beautifully and does not get blobbed by units attacking it from the front. Modders can handle the balance, but we really needed CA to come through on that Pikemen cohesion and they did. I'd say CA did a good job with this one and, for once, they do not deserve our ridicule but our praise instead.

**Kraxis** · October 18, 2013, 08:52 PM

I think the issue is down to each pikeman seeking out an enemy instead of staying in his assigned position. It looks like they stay in position but take note that most of them don't actually stay in place. Rather they move about a bit, sometimes even engaging across. And I think it is that 'random' targeting that leads to fast losses, as the pikeman seeks a target he moves about and comes into range of an enemy who then gets a few free stabs at him, perhaps even past his shield if his position is bad.

It would have been utterly imperative to stay in place in the formation if you didn't want to suddenly have 4-5 pikes shoved in your face, and I think this shows it well. But then again, unless regular units suffering an equal speedy deathrate I'm probably wrong.

**jamreal18** · October 18, 2013, 09:02 PM

I want to know if phalanx now dont allow swordsmen to get close easily...

**Fallen Phalangite** · October 19, 2013, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by jamreal18

I want to know if phalanx now dont allow swordsmen to get close easily...

You'll be happy to know that, for the most part, they don't. Also, Pike Phalanx's have regular kill rates against non-pike troops, as well as maintaining formation, which is good.

Now what I want to know is how to embed Youtube videos properly, haha

**krisslanza** · October 18, 2013, 11:04 PM

Since we're talking about pikemen I want to say - they're TERRIFYING. I didn't expect to get crushed by 4000 Spartans too badly... but the 1000's of Pikemen one of them had just utterly annihilated all my Hastati and Principes. It was terrifying. I have vastly underestimated the value of Pikemen... their stats certainly do not reflect their vicious killing people.

Though in hindsight, it makes sense given you have to run into a wall of really long sticks.