Dear Ca, battles in forced march stances didn't need stupid flags, neither does needs ambushes...

[Lord Baal]

... a simple penalty bonus (maybe permanent for the duration of the battle) to the stamina and perhaps the moral of the troops would be not only less moronic and trouble making, but more simpler and realistic. You will save yourself (and your costumers) some headaches on the long run.

Thanks.

[caissus]

I agree 100%. Why can't they make simple, good decisions? WHY?!

[Humble Warrior]

Seriously, m8, do you think they will listen? They didn`t lsiten to your wall of suggestions for the next Total War. We`re lucky that at least they removed most flags and added the ambush instead.

But I understand your point. I would especially want ALL flags removed, personally.

[[N2]Kami]

I remember they removed the flag for force match battle long ago.And you shouldn't force match in enemy territory anyway.Just my 2 points.

[Lord Baal]

Ahh my good 'ol wall of suggestions I haven't looked at it on a long while. Maybe I should update it to the new state of the total war franchise.

[Ultra123]

Ahh my good 'ol wall of suggestions I haven't looked at it on a long while. Maybe I should update it to the new state of the total war franchise.

Please do good sir

and on topic the whole flag thing is pointless and dumb and i wholeheartedly agree with your OP

[Lord Baal]

Please do good sir

and on topic the whole flag thing is pointless and dumb and i wholeheartedly agree with your OP

Well, one would thing a lot of things are in. However all that got in was the mixed (naval-land) battles and perhaps the coastal cities, however the lack of building variety negates entirely the point of really developing the economy infrastructure of such cities.

In fact, there's a lot to be included that was there right up until shogun 2. Doing so would be quite tiresome and depressing really.


Swamidude, I know it works for the human, but from what I head the AI seems to be incapable of holding itself from doing it, hence it ends up being even more exploitable that the moral and stamina penalty. Also if the game is properly balanced, such penalties would be definitely something really hard to overcome.

[Lord Baal]

I remember they removed the flag for force match battle long ago.And you shouldn't force match in enemy territory anyway.Just my 2 points.

Yeah but forced march shouldn't trigger ambush battles in the open, only if they march, forced or not, up to beside a hidden enemy army. An army attacked after a forced march on the field should have a penalty for morale and fatigue of the soldiers, representing the fact they haven't rested well in the past.. ugh.. year.. sight... and that's about it. No need to have flags, which yes, they replaced, with something that's a tad better, but equally moronic when a perfect solution is at hand.That's more than penalty enough to make it a challenge.

[Bethencourt]

And allow armies or fleets in forced march attack, with penalties, so chasing a fleet or an army in forced march, mostly fleets and armies at sea, make sense. Very often you have to chase them to fight in arrival.

[Lord Baal]

Oh, I forgot about that, Bethencourt, yeah, that too. Historically, the forced march was used often in order to engage two forces separately to deny them the strength of getting together.

[Toho]

are you kidding? I can finally get ambushed or ambush people.
its wonderful.

[Lord Baal]

No, I'm serious. You can finally ambush people because the mechanic has been twisted beyond logic and reason to do so and the AI is sub pair, not reaching the full potential of strategic options available for it on the campaign map.

[Aenima]

From my memory of playing Rome 2, the AI armies, if they weren't just sitting in cities, were almost always in Forced Marched stance, so I agree wholeheartedly. Hell, I'd probably find it better to just remove stances altogether, but if nothing else removing the ambush in battle seems like a good move, simply because I imagine I would have been fighting more ambushes than actual field battles.

[Toho]

I actually dont mind capture the flag.
if the flag was surrounded by a camp then add 5 more flags for all I care.

forward camp, supply camp, forward camp and etc... each side could have several of these camps on a huge map and the army that can defend its own camps and capture the enemy's camp will be the victor.
you instead of constantly trying to beat the AI opponent in the same way over and over. besides the multiplayer possibilities are endless, this ain't M2TW any more its time for some new gimmicks and mechanics instead of recycling old that (20% this or 20% that, well big whoop, who cares?)

[krisslanza]

The flag is the baggage train or something isn't it? They just didn't waste art assets/resources on modelling it. Also didn't they only keep them for navy/ground battles? Because that's pretty much required (or the navy can just sit in the water and time the battle out to win everytime).

The flags always have abstractly represented something important - unless you think somehow capturing a plaza renders a settlement useless. It probably is meant to represent the invading army seizing the leaders, or holding hostages or some such. Things the game doesn't really have to render, so they use a flag instead.

[Lord Baal]

Flags are completely debatable, and I agree there's some kind of battles where they might have its use, although I would rather do render some structures and other things instead of simply having a timer. Flag mechanics allow for a simple unit to defeat a still at large threat, but that's not the point of this thread. I simply consider flags too much gamey and arcade elements for a game with the level of Total War, that despite it's flaws it's well above a lot others.

The thing is that forcing an ambush every time an army on a forced march stance is pretty lame, when there's already a better, simpler and realistic alternative.

Ambush battles should be only that, for when an ambush is set and triggered, not a lousy placeholder to make up for incompetent and incoherent gameplay mechanics design.

[krisslanza]

Flags are completely debatable, and I agree there's some kind of battles where they might have its use, although I would rather do render some structures and other things instead of simply having a timer. Flag mechanics allow for a simple unit to defeat a still at large threat, but that's not the point of this thread. I simply consider flags too much gamey and arcade elements for a game with the level of Total War, that despite it's flaws it's well above a lot others.

The thing is that forcing an ambush every time an army on a forced march stance is pretty lame, when there's already a better, simpler and realistic alternative.Ambush battles should be only that, for when an ambush is set and triggered, not a lousy placeholder to make up for incompetent and incoherent gameplay mechanics design.

Yes it's true the flags are entirely a gameist convenience. But they have also been a series standard since at least Rome 1, though they have recently expanded the flag concept a bit more. I think the new siege mechanics work nicer, if simply because it gets rid of the whole "moshpit in the town square" that sieges suffered from until Shogun 2 it seems (though this is probably because in Shogun 2, the morale buff was spread through the entire inner courtyard, rather then one small square).

[Swamidude]

The ambush thing is a good thing in my opinion, it keeps me from using forced march in enemy provinces or with enemy armies near. A morale drop or some doesn't really bother me, because I'll outsmart the BAI anyway, even if it's 50% lower I'll still win. But ambushes with morale drop are just annoying, I have more losses then when I can prepare. Making a line with hoplites in phalanx formation, archers in front that kill off 25% of the enemy aproaching and take out the enemies slingers before they can do any harm with cavalry is way easier than an ambush.

Maybe not realistic, but you could say that in normal march you march slower and send out scouts and everything and in forced march you just don't have time for that, so you get ambushed earlier.

Only the AI has to know not to use forced march in enemy province, because now I'm ambushing them the whole time, because they don't get it.



On the other topic you're right, flags are stupid especially in open field, yes you could wait out the entire battle from sea and 'win', but the enemy has no casulties and your land army is still ed, so that's your own choice. In settlements there always has been a flag, so I can live with that, especially with the more flags system, now I don't have to defend one flag, but I can choose to let them take two flags and I can retreat to the other flag(s).