Will Spiderman ability fix siege AI?

[RGA]

Personally, I don't know why siege AI is broken so badly. It seems trivial enough, but face it, AI more than very often just sits outside the wall waiting for the timer to end.

Some have postulated that is because of game engine's limitations. ETW, NTW and S2TW go around by having soldiers capable of climbing wall without having to build any special equipment. In other words, every parts inside your fort/castle/city are accessible in AI's eye, and attack they do. If this speculation is true or not, is beyond the scope of this thread, so please do not discuss it.

I comes to an idea, that if it did work with older games, it should also work with R2TW. Imagine your troops are able to climb any wall in game like Spiderman. Climbing with bare hand like in S2TW might be a little bit to silly, but how's about ladders magically appear when troops reach the wall and they start to escalate?

Some drawbacks I might think of:
- Massive disadvantage for the attacking side, since escalation is a very costly way of attacking.
- AI inability to use siege engines (as if they are using them effectively now)


Thought, comment, praise, insult? Everything (except the last one ) is welcome.

To clarify things, I don't want to have troops being able to pull off incredible acrobatic tricks like in ETW or S2TW. I want them to use the ladder. My idea is: ladders appears automatically when soldiers reach the wall and do not have to be built (it is also unrealistic to spend 1 year building a couple of ladders). Everything is there: climbing animation, AI, etc. CA needs only to add a ladder model, which IMHO simple enough.

I also use the best of my Paint excellence to make things more clear

[JaM]

i think it would be much better solution than having torches burning down the iron gate...

[SirRobin]

I vote for enemies jumping over the walls using pogo-sticks..

[Muffin Top]

I vote for enemies jumping over the walls using pogo-sticks..

Just as historically accurate as the current testudo without its sides being protected

[Yerevan]

I vote for enemies jumping over the walls using pogo-sticks..

ahahahah / trying to imagine waves of assault legions on pogo-sticks / you made my day !

The cinematic view would be a little unconfortable though, might want to puke on my keyboard

[caissus]

If the spidermen are returning, I'm shelving this game forever

[kamikazee786]

I think what would help is if the enemy army splits itself into 3-4 groups and surrounds the city and then advances, like how the AI did in Shogun 2.

They should remove the ability to burn gates and teach the AI use its siege weapons such as rams and ladders.

One more thing, Ive been playing for 240 hours+ and i have yet to see a single AI army which recruits ballistae and catapults !!

has this happened to anyone yet ?

[AusHaching]

If the ETW grappling hooks or the S2 ninjas reappear, I´m out. At least now walls and gates serve a purpose.

@Kamikaze In my games, the AI really likes siege equipment. Late game armies very often include 2 engines. What I have never seen is the AI using things like ladders or siege towers (i´ve seen the ai build ladders once, but they went straight to the gate).

Shouldn´t it be possible to include a logic like this in the battle AI?

Are siege engines present? If yes: Use engines to bring down a part of the wall. Do not attack the gates. Charge through breach once the walls are down (the MTW2 AI was capable of this).
No siege engines present? If enemy city has multiple gates: Split army in half, attack two gates at the same time

These two changes would increase the siege experience greatly. I´m no programmer, but it doesn´t seem impossible to implement such an "if then" logic.

[SirRobin]

What I find really bizarre is that most of this stuff worked in previous games. Rome 1 was not a perfect game by any means, but the AI did use siege equipment.

It's not impossible to program, indeed they already did program it (!). Then apparently they threw it away - why?

[Humble Warrior]

Personally, I don't know why siege AI is broken so badly. It seems trivial enough, but face it, AI more than very often just sits outside the wall waiting for the timer to end.

Some have postulated that is because of game engine's limitations. ETW, NTW and S2TW go around by having soldiers capable of climbing wall without having to build any special equipment. In other words, every parts inside your fort/castle/city are accessible in AI's eye, and attack they do. If this speculation is true or not, is beyond the scope of this thread, so please do not discuss it.

I comes to an idea, that if it did work with older games, it should also work with R2TW. Imagine your troops are able to climb any wall in game like Spiderman. Climbing with bare hand like in S2TW might be a little bit to silly, but how's about ladders magically appear when troops reach the wall and they start to escalate?

Some drawbacks I might think of:
- Massive disadvantage for the attacking side, since escalation is a very costly way of attacking.
- AI inability to use siege engines (as if they are using them effectively now)


Thought, comment, praise, insult? Everything (except the last one ) is welcome.

...sigh...

So you want one broken mechanic to be replaced by an awful mechanic?

You people say you are fans of Rome and all that historical stuff, yet if you tolerate the totally unauthentic men climbing the walls how much of a TRUE FAN of Roman stuff can you be? This idea is just as ludicrous, even more so than what we have now. Frankly, I was astonished with Empire that so many people actually accepted 18th century Line infantry climbing the walls in their thousands. I complained about it much - Darth Mod just got rid of the walls.

And that`s exactly what CA should do if they can`t fix sieges- Get rid of the walls (and the Flag too). I`d rather walless cities and the AI attacking and fighting a standard battle authentically than spider-manning walls again. However, I`d rather CA worked and made the siege AI work authentically (like in MTW2 and RTW) and have men breach the walls or use siege engines instead.

Don`t give CA bad compromise ideas, demand that they fix the siege AI like they said they had in their pre-release speeches captured on utube.

[VINC.XXIII]

...sigh...

siege AI like they said they had in their pre-release speeches captured on utube.

Broken sieges are clearly a scam.
That friendly advertising from a game review make me sick:
Just quoting the worse
The city of Carthage will be rendered in its entirety
Siege towers will be available to scale the walls
In the picture below, we see the siege towers working, so, obviously if they shown that, its AI should be able to use it correctly, or I missed a subtility?
I'm really disgusted for peoples who bought the game, scamed they're , nothing of offensing, Sieges are just ubber importants from my point. All the crap features they invented can't replace the good old sieges

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Two New Total War: Rome II Screenshots Showcase the Siege of Carthage, Look Impressive

by Giuseppe Nelva Jul 18th 2012 12:24PM 2 @abriael

PCNEWSGALLERIES

The Total War community has been ablaze with happyness since the announcement of Total War: Rome 2 (I would have still preferred Medieval III, but I’ll be happy with what I get), but we got precious little details and assets about the game.
Today, during their Rally Point video dev diary, The Creative Assembly shared two new screenshots of the game and a few info about what we can see in them.
The two screenies show an impressive rendition of the Siege of Carthage and quite a few innovative (and some returning) elements that will make their way into the new episode of the franchise.

• The city of Carthage will be rendered in its entirety, from the harbor to the top of the hill.
• It will be possible to roll invading ships directly into the harbor and disembark troops that will seamlessly go into battle inside the city while the ships offer fire support.
• Siege towers will be available to scale the walls, troops will actually fight inside and around them.
• Physics will be implemented. Arrows will actually stick into shields when they hit them.
• There will be a lot of variation between the outfits of different single soldiers.
• Elephants will be back.
• It will be possible to set fire to elements of the environment (Wonder if we’ll be able to scatter salt on the scorched earth too).

You can check out the two screenshots below, together with the full episode of Rally Point, while I stop about it being Rome II and and not Medieval III. It looks sweet enough for me not to care.

To answer to the OP, I think too escalation won't replace a proper pathfinding for machines and a decent AI. We don't ask a super "machiavelic" AI, just that AI launch straight to the walls its towers, nothing less than MTW2 feature.
And well, let bring a lot of ladders for factions having not notions of poliorcetic, I already imagine Germans and Celts using these soil-soil missiles they have in custom battles. -----GIANT BALLISTAS------ or whatever.
Giant Ballistas, torches, scalations, all silly stuff to help us to forget siege machines.

[Humble Warrior]

Broken sieges are clearly a scam.
That friendly advertising from a game review make me sick:
Just quoting the worse
The city of Carthage will be rendered in its entirety
Siege towers will be available to scale the walls
In the picture below, we see the siege towers working, so, obviously if they shown that, its AI should be able to use it correctly, or I missed a subtility?
I'm really disgusted for peoples who bought the game, scamed they're , nothing of offensing, Sieges are just ubber importants from my point. All the crap features they invented can't replace the good old sieges

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Two New Total War: Rome II Screenshots Showcase the Siege of Carthage, Look Impressive

by Giuseppe Nelva Jul 18th 2012 12:24PM 2 @abriael

PCNEWSGALLERIES

The Total War community has been ablaze with happyness since the announcement of Total War: Rome 2 (I would have still preferred Medieval III, but I’ll be happy with what I get), but we got precious little details and assets about the game.
Today, during their Rally Point video dev diary, The Creative Assembly shared two new screenshots of the game and a few info about what we can see in them.
The two screenies show an impressive rendition of the Siege of Carthage and quite a few innovative (and some returning) elements that will make their way into the new episode of the franchise.

• The city of Carthage will be rendered in its entirety, from the harbor to the top of the hill.
• It will be possible to roll invading ships directly into the harbor and disembark troops that will seamlessly go into battle inside the city while the ships offer fire support.
• Siege towers will be available to scale the walls, troops will actually fight inside and around them.
• Physics will be implemented. Arrows will actually stick into shields when they hit them.
• There will be a lot of variation between the outfits of different single soldiers.
• Elephants will be back.
• It will be possible to set fire to elements of the environment (Wonder if we’ll be able to scatter salt on the scorched earth too).

You can check out the two screenshots below, together with the full episode of Rally Point, while I stop about it being Rome II and and not Medieval III. It looks sweet enough for me not to care.

Yea, it`s astonishing how far they went to give us the impression that most everything worked fine in sieges while, in reality, it lay broken- and this was MONTHS before release (so maybe they could`ve fixed it in that time instead of continuing the deception or even apologising with the truth before). And if there`s one thing I don`t like is being lied to, especially when it concerns money and trust.

[paradamed]

Don`t give CA bad compromise ideas, demand that they fix the siege AI like they said they had in their pre-release speeches captured on utube.

I agree. We cant accept workarounds or half measures. They need to fix it in a an appropriate way. They need to force the ai to use ladders and siege towers.

[Yerevan]

And AI don't even know how to assault a fort with its doors wide opened just as I bitterly experience everytime they attack my army in fortified stance. It's automatic heroic victory. I don't even use "fortified stance" anymore..

[VINC.XXIII]

And AI don't even know how to assault a fort with its doors wide opened just as I bitterly experience everytime they attack my army in fortified stance. It's automatic heroic victory. I don't even use "fortified stance" anymore..

Just discovered yesterday the basic forts, the mesh is very disappointing, me I call it a "camp", not a fort. A fort its like Megara Hyblaea, the real-life Velathri, Massada or Payon Kurgan. Somewhere you feels really secure. Places that can keep your borders and impress your own people and eventually protect you from domestic enemies. Not a normal city, rather a fortified palace..
Beside, realizing how the sieges are bugged, I understands CA prefered to replace real forts by these tiny things, make them temporary..and just forget oppida and roman colonies btw. Too much complex for C.A.

[Kraut]

Do.Not.Bring.Back.Spiderman.Soldiers.
Please.











Please.With.Sugar.On.Top.

[Praetorian_BGX]

It would make this game looks even more funny. Magic unit buffs are enough.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I have seen the AI use ladders once, in a terrible way mind you.

Once in many siege battles.....

2 units used ladders and attacked a wall, and the rest did the usual zombie rush through the gate and got slaughtered by burning oil and 3 units of pikemen

[Krasnaïa Zvezda]

I have seen the AI use siege engines (2 ballistae I think) to destroy part of the walls and then use that breach, even though it was to rush to the capture point...

Getting rid of the torches would force the AI to use it's siege engines or to use siege equipment.

Because the AI does build siege equipment but prefers to burn down the gate as it is the easiest and thus more logical (for the AI) way to make a breach...

[Yerevan]

I have seen the AI use siege engines (2 ballistae I think) to destroy part of the walls and then use that breach, even though it was to rush to the capture point...

Getting rid of the torches would force the AI to use it's siege engines or to use siege equipment.

Because the AI does build siege equipment but prefers to burn down the gate as it is the easiest and thus more logical (for the AI) way to make a breach...

Sure, you can't ask an AI not to use shortcuts.