Solution to Elite unit spam.

[Faris_Elghoul]

Hey guys,

The only solution I have heard of is to increase the unit cost or limit a unit. I find that ineffective.

My thoughts on this is that the unit upkeep should be increased. I have had a moment in my campaign that I wanted a full stack that defends the province of italy. Was thinking of buying medium/low cost unit for the sake of the treasury but why should I? The high cost of a elite unit is just for once and the upkeep is almost the same as a low miltia unit.

To reduce elite units spam the upkeep cost should be increased a lot for the elite units. Not saying that this should be patched or mabye modded. Just how think about this "issue".

[Jofoblie]

My idea was to increase the price/upkeep for each elite unit. So with 1 or 2 elite units the upkeep would be almost the same as a low militia unit, but the more elite units of that type you have, the more the recruitment/upkeep costs go up. That way they're not prohibitively expensive unless you spam them!

Neat idea, huh?

[Kraut]

There is an "Elite Unit Spam" problem?
What patch are playing on?

(my experience is rather the opposite: the AI using armies mostly made of low quality missille troops or levies)

[acm_no1]

There is an "Elite Unit Spam" problem?
What patch are playing on?

(my experience is rather the opposite: the AI using armies mostly made of low quality missille troops or levies)

because you're not playing official game or you simply didn't update your game to patch 4, then you don't have rights to complain about AI's bad setup

[Jofoblie]

I do believe he's talking about the player's experience. Faris sees no reason to build a balanced army if he can just field an army of elite units for more or less the same price.

[Kraut]

I do believe he's talking about the player's experience.

Ok, if read that way it makes much more sense.

However, IMHO the answer is simply "stick to plausible army setups". Personally, I use armies trying to mirror their historical counterparts, even if "unrealistic composed armies" would better serve my style. For example, in Republican Roman (Polybian) armies, I use very few Equites (1 or max 2 units), although more cav would be easier doing on the battlefield (would prefer 4 cav). Also, I use about the same qty of Hastati and Principes, while it would give much more battlefield power to replace ALL Hastati with Principes. And going on, I have more Velites and Triarii in my armies than I normally would use, just for "historical" purposes. This way, no elite spam problem for the player. But this is probably just a matter of taste.

[Vor]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to if you don't like it. Self control!

[Cruzz]

Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to if you don't like it. Self control!

Yes, just like I could move my units to stop the AI from flanking them, but then I'd easily win so clearly I shouldn't.

Game mechanics should make for sensical gameplay. There is no sense whatsoever in elite units that can easily beat 10 times their number in low quality troops being only twice as expensive as said low quality troops.

[Naked Emperor]

If elite units become super expensive then we´ll never fight them. The player is usually rolling in money by the time he has researched and built level 4 barracks and has probably conquered 25 regions or more but most of the A.I faction will not afford them.

[Vor]

If elite units become super expensive then we´ll never fight them. The player is usually rolling in money by the time he has researched and built level 4 barracks and has probably conquered 25 regions or more but most of the A.I faction will not afford them.

Exactly.

[SinerAthin]

I'd love to see elite units buffed, alongside their cost/upkeep.
Right now the elite units mostly feel like they are just another tier of ordinary soldiers, no serious investment.


Plus, I'd like to see inferior units still beating Elite units cost wise(provided they can outflank them)

[acm_no1]

I'd love to see elite units buffed, alongside their cost/upkeep.
Right now the elite units mostly feel like they are just another tier of ordinary soldiers, no serious investment.


Plus, I'd like to see inferior units still beating Elite units cost wise(provided they can outflank them)

I think manpower system like Medieval 2 would be great, you have to wait 5 turns to recruit more Foot Companions

and of course they must be extremely expensive, I like the idea modders did with Stainless Steel where Francish Lancers cost more than 3 or 4 times to normal unit

[Kraut]

you have to wait 5 turns to recruit more Foot Companions

That would be 5 years in R2

[acm_no1]

That would be 5 years in R2

well it was 10 turns in SS so I guess 5 years are ok

just my opinion, it could be 2 or 3 years, I'm fine with it

[Unchained]

If elite units become super expensive then we´ll never fight them. The player is usually rolling in money by the time he has researched and built level 4 barracks and has probably conquered 25 regions or more but most of the A.I faction will not afford them.

Well unless at higher difficulties they give the AI a cheat which to be honest I think it desperately needs right now.

Heck I think in Shogun 2, for a hard difficulty I'd liked to have seen a full set of 40 units of all katana, yari, and bow heroes.

Then at very hard maybe all 9 chevron with instant replacement each time you failed to get the keep.

I'd love to see elite units buffed, alongside their cost/upkeep.
Right now the elite units mostly feel like they are just another tier of ordinary soldiers, no serious investment.


Plus, I'd like to see inferior units still beating Elite units cost wise(provided they can outflank them)

All things considered, something like the katana hero is probably the way to go. Very costly but very good. I mean seeing them fight Yari Ashigaru was comical but it's the lesser evil here. I mean, people are spamming Praetorian Guards.


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[karamazovmm]

recruitment over time only makes sense when it isnt a 1tpy game, its really annoying that sometimes your general dies before you finish recruiting that army, with 2-3 years per unit that would make a rotation of 2-3 generals necessary and it would break gameplay with the enormous wait time just for those turns so you can actually advance on your campaign

[acm_no1]

recruitment over time only makes sense when it isnt a 1tpy game, its really annoying that sometimes your general dies before you finish recruiting that army, with 2-3 years per unit that would make a rotation of 2-3 generals necessary and it would break gameplay with the enormous wait time just for those turns so you can actually advance on your campaign

it only applies to elite units, tier 2 or 3 units do not have any manpower system, that's my point, you can build as many Thorax Pikemen as you want but you can only recruit 1 Foot Companion per 3 years

that makes sense because elite units mean they're very well trained and we need longer time recruiting, training them.

[karamazovmm]

it only applies to elite units, tier 2 or 3 units do not have any manpower system, that's my point, you can build as many Thorax Pikemen as you want but you can only recruit 1 Foot Companion per 3 years

that makes sense because elite units mean they're very well trained and we need longer time recruiting, training them.

if that would only apply to the player that is fine, if that would apply to the Ai it would be troublesome.

i still really hate recruitment over time

the logic is that its harder to get so I value it more, my logic is, they deliver results thats why I value them

[archone]

Waiting 5 years to train elite units is fine, training elites in real life could take 10-20 years. The only problem is it's annoying to sit a general there to babysit your recruitment, the solution is to allow movement during recruitment after the first turn so you can campaign while waiting for your elites to finish. Another option is to have them require unique resources.

The AI not getting to build them is also a problem, but that can be resolved by having each unit more expensive beyond the first or just having the AI cheat.

Increasing upkeep is a good solution for sure, there's just not much reason to use normal units right now when you can spam elites. However, elites should still be more specialized, for example, praetorian guards would actually feel like a small cohort of bodyguards if their stack size was 50. Berserkers are a good example of how to make an elite unit that doesn't render every other unit pointless.

[Frederf]

Elites should only be upgradable from battle ordinary units. For example if you had 3 units of Hastatii each suitably experienced you could cull out the best 1/3rd and create an elite unit but it would cost most/all of the built up experience of the 3 donor units. You don't recruit elites, you collect them from lesser units. PJs come from SEALs come from Rangers come from 19Ds come from 11Bs.