Order of battle question

[Frtigern]

I have a question to the battle hardened veterans of EB. Where do you place your veterans and your green troops? Veterans up front and greens in reserve or greens up front and veterans in reserve? I ask this question because history has shown us that the Romans put their younger hastati up front with the veterans in reserve. Other commanders would do the same in various armies in later eras, but why would you? It is been said that barbarians usually put their veterans up front, is this necessarily true for all barbarians or just Gallic tribes? What's the best reason for doing this? Did the Roman system change after the Marion reforms? Were cohorts lined up according to the amount of experience they had? I know the first cohort was a veteran unit always on the right flank. Why was this? Did that mean the last cohort on the far left column of the legion was the least experienced?

One that I've found is that generals would put their green soldiers up front not necessarily to be cannon fodder but to slow the enemy momentum and break up their formation, so while the green soldiers would break and run, they would be faced with a fresh veteran line waiting to meet a disorganized and semi-fatigued line. But a more important aspect of putting greens up front would be to give the survivors battle experience. Is this how you play your EB battles? I know later on, we can consolidate stacks composed of all veterans, but what about when you have to fill it in with a green unit? Where do you place them? I mean melee troops.

[Entropy Judge]

I have a question to the battle hardened veterans of EB. Where do you place your veterans and your green troops? Veterans up front and greens in reserve or greens up front and veterans in reserve?

I tend to not really pay much attention, to be honest. On the few occasions where I think the extra points are going to make or break a battle, the closest I come is still more along the lines of "put the Vets where they will be hit by multiple units, but the Greens where they won't be flanked." I don't usually separate units by veterancy, but by role - shock units, for example, tend to be put in the 'reserve' (of a defensive battle) to handle flanks and leakers, but putting both Vets and Greens in the front is my typical OoB. Not to mention, it's the best of both worlds - the Greens get more XP while the Vets make sure the line is stable. Then again, I also tend to utilize either Archer/Cavalry flanking maneuvers to keep the pressure off my infantry, or overstacking a flank so I can roll the line up (if I'm playing a faction without easy access to good Shock Cavalry or Archers, like the Sweboz). I do take a rather "Ends justify" attitude towards my battle, and I tend to avoid close-run battles; I like my losses to occur because I did something remarkably stupid.

I know the first cohort was a veteran unit always on the right flank. Why was this?

If the rationale is the same as I've seen for the Greek reason for doing the same, it's that when in a shield wall, soldiers will instinctively try to get behind their neighbor's shield, causing the battle-line to slowly drift to the right; placing the most experienced troops in that location helps minimize that drift.

One that I've found is that generals would put their green soldiers up front not necessarily to be cannon fodder but to slow the enemy momentum and break up their formation, so while the green soldiers would break and run, they would be faced with a fresh veteran line waiting to meet a disorganized and semi-fatigued line.

... That's pretty much the whole point of cannon fodder. You put them in a position you know they can't hold, and their job is to slow and disrupt the enemy. (Pre-Industrial warfare, anyway.)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

All soldiers in EB hold their shields in the left hand, meaning their right flank is a lot more vulnerable than their left flank. So the most elite or most experienced unit goes on the extreme right of the line, as they have higher morale and are less likely to break when they suffer heavy losses. The next most experienced unit goes on the extreme left of the line, since they too will be outflanked. Greenest men go in the centre, with the general standing behind them to buck up their morale.

Another thing about experience - in EB, I never, ever retrain units - I regard it as taking advantage of a bug in the game engine. Because when a depleted unit is retrained, it keeps its current experience level, no matter how depleted it was, and how many of the men in the retrained unit are new recruits.

Instead, I recruit new units, then merge the new units into depleted veteran units. That way, the experience level of the merged unit is averaged out between the remaining experienced veterans and the new rookies (the more new recruits coming into the depleted unit, the more the experience level of the unit drops.)

This way is more realistic IMO. Units with three gold experience chevrons become very rare - only missile units who don't suffer heavy losses (archers and horse archers), light cavalry who spend all their time slaughtering routers, and FM bodyguards will reach that kind of experience level quickly. Melee infantry will likely take many decades to reach three gold chevrons.

[Entropy Judge]

Another thing about experience - in EB, I never, ever retrain units - I regard it as taking advantage of a bug in the game engine. Because when a depleted unit is retrained, it keeps its current experience level, no matter how depleted it was, and how many of the men in the retrained unit are new recruits.

I'd really like to know what's up with this one. I've had it happen ... and I've also had it *not* happen, when I take a 6-7 XP unit with a double handful of men left (auto_won battles ... yeah, yeah), retrained them, and gotten a 2-3 XP unit. I wonder if it has to do with whether there are any "Recruited Units get Bonus X" the city has.

[Hummer]

I always position my units according to their role in battle. I don't pay much heed to experience as my units seem to mostly go up and about the same rate.

If for example, I am playing as Roma, I always position my Hastati in the front of the line since Hastati and Principies are roughly the same unit.

I generally try to keep my elites in the back(reserve) to only engage at the opportune time so as to not take unnecessary casualties.

[Bladvak]

It depends on whether the battle will be a hard one or not.

If it's a crucial, large battle, I put the veterans where the fight will be the thickest. If it's a small battle or one where I'm bound to win, I put the green units up front and sometimes even tell my veterans to walk away from the battlefield so as to not incur any losses at all.

[Boriak]

My units tend to get minimal experience chevrons (two or three at best; a general might have a silver one) so I don't really pay much attention to these things.

[locoace3]

my usual battle order is medium infantry in the front and heavy right behind, with my skirmishers behind them after they'e used their missiles and missile troops with the skirmishers, and cavalry close on the right wing, generals on the left. I usually give little thought to veteran

[Boriak]

my usual battle order is medium infantry in the front and heavy right behind, with my skirmishers behind them after they'e used their missiles and missile troops with the skirmishers, and cavalry close on the right wing, generals on the left. I usually give little thought to veteran

I'm alternating between heavy and medium in the first line. With Rome, Hastati are always the first though sometimes it would make sense to put Triarii on the front line to break the enemy's rush. I tend to use more mercenaries now anyway so Merc spearmen tend to draw first blood.

[e22big]

I deploy my unit based on their logistic capability. The easiest to retrain go first, take as mush casualties as they can get (usually it is Greek Hoplite, or Reformata if I am playing as Roman). The harder one like elite unit will be held in reserve, or use in a well prepare flanking charge (Like elephant). In general I try not to bring the elite unit in to a battlefield unless they are extremely valuable which most of the time will be either missile or cavalry.

[Boriak]

The first line could be considered as a position of honor as it takes the most guts to be there and was the first to draw blood. This doesn't work for all cultures, of course, but it is a nice detail RP wise.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I deploy my unit based on their logistic capability. The easiest to retrain go first, take as mush casualties as they can get (usually it is Greek Hoplite, or Reformata if I am playing as Roman). The harder one like elite unit will be held in reserve, or use in a well prepare flanking charge (Like elephant). In general I try not to bring the elite unit in to a battlefield unless they are extremely valuable which most of the time will be either missile or cavalry.

Good plan - but here's an exception...

I was pleasantly surprised when first playing Carthage in EB after my 'dead' elephants were resurrected at the end of the battle! I'd sent them in first, so they were the first unit engaged, fighting on their own. They quickly panicked and all died or ran amok - I was groaning in despair at the disaster - but because there were only a few of them and they died first, they were all healed at the end of the battle! I was really happy about that!

My elephants never die - they just play dead and lie doggo until the fighting's over. Smart elephants...

[e22big]

Good plan - but here's an exception...

I was pleasantly surprised when first playing Carthage in EB after my 'dead' elephants were resurrected at the end of the battle! I'd sent them in first, so they were the first unit engaged, fighting on their own. They quickly panicked and all died or ran amok - I was groaning in despair at the disaster - but because there were only a few of them and they died first, they were all healed at the end of the battle! I was really happy about that!

My elephants never die - they just play dead and lie doggo until the fighting's over. Smart elephants...

I have that sometime too but it is mostly occurred in my other unit. If my elephant are to be resurrected like that they've got to be down to 2-3 unit which at this point I mostly send them back to retrain and preserve their experience as mush as possible. Although in general my elephant often get killed when they happened to run pass a tip of a pike and gone forever..(I guest it's an infection T_T)

Good for you to have a smart elephant, my doesn't

[Boriak]

Good for you to have a smart elephant, my doesn't

Hire better mahouts.

[Samariten]

I have a question to the battle hardened veterans of EB. Where do you place your veterans and your green troops? Veterans up front and greens in reserve or greens up front and veterans in reserve? I ask this question because history has shown us that the Romans put their younger hastati up front with the veterans in reserve. Other commanders would do the same in various armies in later eras, but why would you? It is been said that barbarians usually put their veterans up front, is this necessarily true for all barbarians or just Gallic tribes? What's the best reason for doing this? Did the Roman system change after the Marion reforms? Were cohorts lined up according to the amount of experience they had? I know the first cohort was a veteran unit always on the right flank. Why was this? Did that mean the last cohort on the far left column of the legion was the least experienced?

One that I've found is that generals would put their green soldiers up front not necessarily to be cannon fodder but to slow the enemy momentum and break up their formation, so while the green soldiers would break and run, they would be faced with a fresh veteran line waiting to meet a disorganized and semi-fatigued line. But a more important aspect of putting greens up front would be to give the survivors battle experience. Is this how you play your EB battles? I know later on, we can consolidate stacks composed of all veterans, but what about when you have to fill it in with a green unit? Where do you place them? I mean melee troops.

I dont pay attention to chevrons that much and i try to fight battles as the romans did using hastati first then marching up the principes to fill/relieve gaps. The key is to tire out the enemy before breaking them so i put all my units in guard mode (except assault units). Reading your post you pretty much answer your own question .

[Duncan III]

I agree with Titus Marcellus Scato when it comes to a single line of one unit type- most experienced unit on right wing and second most experienced on left wing.

They are less likely to break if flanked.

[the man, the myth, the legend]

Rookies in the front, fill gaps and flank with veterans. That way the more expendable soldiers will take more casualties and possibly gain experience, while my veterans can maneuver to flank, or reinforce, if the the rookies begin to crumble.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

There are some cases where elite units are less well protected than the regulars. Like the Celtic naked guys or Dacian falxmen for instance, or British two-handed swordsmen. You wouldn't want even experienced people without armour or without a shield on the flanks, the danger from missiles is too great. Units like that need to charge into melee as soon as possible.

[Duncan III]

There are some cases where elite units are less well protected than the regulars. Like the Celtic naked guys or Dacian falxmen for instance, or British two-handed swordsmen. You wouldn't want even experienced people without armour or without a shield on the flanks, the danger from missiles is too great. Units like that need to charge into melee as soon as possible.

Putting the experienced guys on the flank is only relevant in a line of one unit type- otherwise it makes sense to put spearmen on the flank to protect the ends of the line from cavalry.

The high attack/lowish defence 'elite' troops are best used for rear/flank attacks on already engaged enemies.

[Entropy Judge]

Putting the experienced guys on the flank is only relevant in a line of one unit type- otherwise it makes sense to put spearmen on the flank to protect the ends of the line from cavalry.

Depends. The AI will often drive its cavalry straight into the center of your defensive line ... regardless of what troops you have there.

The high attack/lowish defence 'elite' troops are best used for rear/flank attacks on already engaged enemies.

Those are Shock units you're referring to, which are not necessarily "Elites" - units like Neitos and Pedites Extraordinarii qualify as Elites, and both have excellent Defenses.