Ca should have done what Obsidian did with New Vegas Fallout 3...

[Humble Warrior]

I really liked Fallout 3, even though I didn`t expect to cos I`m not much of a `guns and end of world` man, I much prefer `realistic` dark fantasy rpgs. I had to of course use a raft of Mods to make FO3 better for me, mostly hardcore stuff.

Anyway, after waiting a long time I finally bought Fallout New Vegas with all the expansions to replace my RTW2 disappointment. And was pleasantly surprised. What I noticed Obsidian did was instead of dumbing down the game further, Obsidian actually added a REALISTIC hardcore mode where you ammo actually had weight, you needed to eat\drink\sleep watch the radiation and things were just tougher overall. They even added TRUE weapon sights! No longer did I need the dumb crosshair any more, now I aim- Fire! Even the AI acts better fighting at good long gun distances and making you sweat for the effort. In fact, most of this stuff was already done by modders and better, but what I liked was instead of trying to be too clever or just running to the arcade crowd, they recognised that there`s a MATURE crowd out there who don`t want to be treated like kids.

CA should have followed suit. They should`ve made RTW2, lwith the best of RTW with what people on the forums were doing with MODS and then made a `hardcore` mode for those of us who wanted something indepth and more immersive\realistic instead of getting arrogant, going off the deepend with deceptions and making just an arcade game instead.

Oh, yes, I know there`s a `realism` mode in RTW2, but it`s just for battles and only removes visual handholds, it doesn`t actually do anything substantial to the core arcade game, like even making the semi-functioning AI act better.

If you had truly cared for the Fans you would`ve done something like this. You would have really thought of the people who propped you up all those years.

The only negativity about New Vegas was Steam, but New Vegas only cost me £5 , at that price I don`t mind, even if I don`t like Steam.

[krisslanza]

The thing is adding in those things to FO3's engine wasn't very hard. Modders had kind of already done it, and it was just adding some extra bars and stats.

To do the same thing for Total War though? That's another matter entirely. Total War's scope would require a significantly larger amount of features tweaked for this "Hardcore" mode.

Also why do you always have to say "If you truly care about your fans"? Stop speaking for everyone. There's a lot of fans of Total War, and not all of them think TW is the game series you think it is. I personally only used some total conversion mods for Medieval 2, like Third Age. But most of the Rome mods I think are just kind of pointless. So does that make me not a "fan"?

[Humble Warrior]

The thing is adding in those things to FO3's engine wasn't very hard. Modders had kind of already done it, and it was just adding some extra bars and stats.

To do the same thing for Total War though? That's another matter entirely. Total War's scope would require a significantly larger amount of features tweaked for this "Hardcore" mode.

Nonsense. The words of a desperate person trying to reason everything in CA`s favour. CA know their game, they`ve been making it as long as Bethesda since Morrowind, they have at least a DECADE`S worth of experience of at least TWO ENGINES- It`s their baby, just like Bethesda`s legacy of rpg games is their baby. So CA know how to do everything to make the game as I described above. It isn`t a problem for CA if they made the effort instead of just thinking how much money they can lie out of potential buyers.

Also why do you always have to say "If you truly care about your fans"? Stop speaking for everyone. There's a lot of fans of Total War, and not all of them think TW is the game series you think it is. I personally only used some total conversion mods for Medieval 2, like Third Age. But most of the Rome mods I think are just kind of pointless. So does that make me not a "fan"?

Now you asked me a personal question, let me ask you one first: Why do you feel the need to suck up to CA continuously?
Really I want to know.

p.s. Edited to avoid hurting krisslanza`s sensibilities.

[krisslanza]

Nonsense. The words of a desperate person trying to reason everything in CA`s favour. CA know their game, they`ve been making it as long as Bethesda since Morrowind, they have at least a DECADE`S worth of experience of at least TWO ENGINES- It`s their baby, just like Bethesda`s legacy of rpg games is their baby. So CA know how to do everything to make the game as I described above. It isn`t a problem for CA if they made the effort instead of just thinking how much money they can lie out of potential buyers.

I seriously doubt it. Don't most of the advanced Rome 1 mods require some specific script you have to turn on to even work right? That they had to shoehorn in via clicking the Help button and then a specific line of dialogue or something?

And you always say that too "CA Lieing". They haven't lied anymore then any advertisements do. Just because you think TW is supposed to be this hardcore, super realistic, super difficult game series... doesn't mean CA does. I mean, if they did, you wouldn't see mods to make the game harder right? Total War isn't Dark Souls, it's not meant to be hard. It's meant to be accessible, with the ABILITY to make it difficult.

Now you asked me a personal question, let me ask you one first: Why do you feel the need to suck up to CA continuously? Do you see them as a kind of mother, caring for you, giving you some kind of `milk` you can`t do without? Do you really think that CA cares for you that much that somehow you`re going to get some kind of `Thankyou, krisslanza, mummy CA loves you?` Christmas present in the post? Do you really belive that constant following behind CA on bended knee praising them like some kind of god is doing you any good?

Really I want to know.

I haven't sucked up to CA. Anything I've said is my own personal opinion of the game series. I've never seen CA make a "bad" game. They've made some buggy releases, this is true, but they've always fixed them. But their games are genuinely good, so I have no problem with buying it, and having to wait a month or so to make it more playable (if even that long), Shogun 2 was pretty playable after a week.

On the other hand, bashing them relentlessly about things isn't doing you any good either. Nor is it going to do TWC any good. Most of the things you want are just terrible ideas for the core game, but are acceptable in optional mods. CA isn't going to have the resources and money to make them official though, because they aren't going to help them sell the product by investing money in features that don't appeal to the wide audience. If people want the game to go specific ways, that's why the TW games have always been moddable so others can do that if they want.

[Enomine]

I seriously doubt it. Don't most of the advanced Rome 1 mods require some specific script you have to turn on to even work right? That they had to shoehorn in via clicking the Help button and then a specific line of dialogue or something?

I play Stainless Steel on Med 2 all the time and it's literally just install and play. Stainless Steel is objectively a far deeper experience than Rome 2 in spite of being produced by unpaid modders on a nearly derelict game engine. I find it hard to believe that CA isn't capable of producing something better on a new engine that they created themselves. The idea that Rome II is the way it is because it was "too hard" for CA to do anything else is...well...completely absurd apologetics to put it politely.

[krisslanza]

I play Stainless Steel on Med 2 all the time and it's literally just install and play. Stainless Steel is objectively a far deeper experience than Rome 2 in spite of being produced by unpaid modders on a nearly derelict game engine. I find it hard to believe that CA isn't capable of producing something better on a new engine that they created themselves. The idea that Rome II is the way it is because it was "too hard" for CA to do anything else is...well...completely absurd apologetics to put it politely.

Medieval 2 didn't need a script extender in it like Rome 1 mods.
I don't think I ever tried Stainless Steel though, sounds kind of like a Mount & Blade mod...

And again though, that's what mods are for. To make unique gameplay experiences that may not sell well in the core game. The core game has to be able to appeal to EVERYONE - mods can be made to appeal to specific people, because they don't cost anything (but time) for modders to make them. CA has to risk losing money and their good name whenever they produce a product. It has to appeal to everyone, not just some.

[Praetorian_BGX]

I've never seen CA make a "bad" game.

Its a matter of perception. Every warscape title was a crap for me. Again, this applies to my personal standards.

They've made some buggy releases, this is true, but they've always fixed them.

They never fixed Empire.

While Bethesda is also well know for releasing bugged games, they intend to improve games like Fallout 3 / Fallout New Vegas, Oblivion / Skyrim. On all those titles you can spend 100+ hours (without dlc).

[Enomine]

I agree with you, New Vegas was a very pleasant surprise. The character interactions, choice and consequence, plethora of endings and factions, the further development of the crafting system, the addition of hardcore mode as well as the excellent DLC (Dead Money has some of the best character development and storytelling I have seen in a game in years) all made it a very enjoyable experience. I was very impressed with it, and I still think it is one of the best "modern" rpgs. Obsidian did great things with it in spite of being forced to use a horrible engine.

You know what? Maybe CA should outsource their next game like Bethesda did. Let Paradox or some other creative and competent developer make their game for them. If the results are anything like New Vegas was compared to FO3, then we would have one amazing TW game.

[SamueleD]

Maybe rather than just do an hardcore mode, they should simply make an hardcore game. Let's face it, TW core concept is not well suited to casual gaming and arcade styles, and every step TW makes towards arcade style elements is a proof that, since it just makes the game worse. There is just no way to make a casual game with TW core concept work, and the more they'll try to do it, the more they'll fail, because they won't end up appealing neither to the casuals nor the hardcore gamers.

TW core concept is hardcore. Why would anyone buy it as a casual game, when they can buy a game that was conceived to be a casual game from the start? TW doesn't make a good casual game, it never will, no matter how much CA tries to turn it into one, but it can make an awesome hardcore game, one that will at least appeal to hardcore gamers, instead of no one.

[krisslanza]

Maybe rather than just do an hardcore mode, they should simply make an hardcore game. Let's face it, TW core concept is not well suited to casual gaming and arcade styles, and every step TW makes towards arcade style elements is a proof that, since it just makes the game worse. There is just no way to make a casual game with TW core concept work, and the more they'll try to do it, the more they'll fail, because they won't end up appealing neither to the casuals nor the hardcore gamers.

TW core concept is hardcore. Why would anyone buy it as a casual game, when they can buy a game that was conceived to be a casual game from the start? TW doesn't make a good casual game, it never will, no matter how much CA tries to turn it into one, but it can make an awesome hardcore game, one that will at least appeal to hardcore gamers, instead of no one.

The fact Rome 2 is the most popular and best selling Total War yet says otherwise. Unless you think Rome 2 is hardcore, which popular opinion on this forum, say it is not.

I've never seen Total War as very hardcore though. Unless you play on Legendary, but that's because that difficulty is specifically setup to be difficult. But on Normal? It's not a very hard game at all. The early game is a bit rough, but it's pretty easy going from the mid to end game.

[SamueleD]

The fact Rome 2 is the most popular and best selling Total War yet says otherwise. Unless you think Rome 2 is hardcore, which popular opinion on this forum, say it is not.

I've never seen Total War as very hardcore though. Unless you play on Legendary, but that's because that difficulty is specifically setup to be difficult. But on Normal? It's not a very hard game at all. The early game is a bit rough, but it's pretty easy going from the mid to end game.

Rome 2 is "bestselling" only because of pre-orders and hype.

Hardcore is not just about difficulty, it's about complexity and the involvement required from the player. The TW core concept is about having to manage a turn based campaign and real-time battles, which is bound to be a complex thing, even though they are doing a nice job dumbing it down. A casual game is not necessarily an easy game, in the same way a hardcore game is not necessarily a hard game, a casual game is a game that does not require much involvement, a game that you can just pick up, play for an hour and enjoy, then go back to whatever you want to do. Some game concepts are well suited for hardcore games, some are well suited for casual games, some work well for both, TW only works well for hardcore.

[krisslanza]

Rome 2 is "bestselling" only because of pre-orders and hype.

Hardcore is not just about difficulty, it's about complexity and the involvement required from the player. The TW core concept is about having to manage a turn based campaign and real-time battles, which is bound to be a complex thing, even though they are doing a nice job dumbing it down. A casual game is not necessarily an easy game, in the same way a hardcore game is not necessarily a hard game, a casual game is a game that does not require much involvement, a game that you can just pick up, play for an hour and enjoy, then go back to whatever you want to do. Some game concepts are well suited for hardcore games, some are well suited for casual games, some work well for both, TW only works well for hardcore.

I don't think hype/pre-orders carries a game a month to stay on the top seller charts.

I have to disagree there. Even from Rome 1, I never felt it was a very 'hardcore' game. It certainly did require more commitment then a normal RTS like say Age of Empires, or StarCraft, but this is mainly because in TW you have to plan long-term. There's no "cheese" way to win a game, and your games are also likely to last hours, instead of only a singular hour.

Total War is complex, but it's not OVERLY complex. It's simplistic, but engaging. It's easy to learn, but has depth. These are all things that contribute to its popularity. I don't think Total War has to change its model to succeed, as it works as is.

[Praetorian_BGX]

The fact Rome 2 is the most popular and best selling Total War yet says otherwise.

That "fact" is coming from pre-orders and their propaganda unit that used 40% stimulation .....

[JaM]

The fact Rome 2 is the most popular and best selling Total War yet says otherwise. Unless you think Rome 2 is hardcore, which popular opinion on this forum, say it is not.

I've never seen Total War as very hardcore though. Unless you play on Legendary, but that's because that difficulty is specifically setup to be difficult. But on Normal? It's not a very hard game at all. The early game is a bit rough, but it's pretty easy going from the mid to end game.

question is, how many of those people would buy that game if they knew what they bought... don't forget all webs gave R2 quite high score, it was the player backslash on Metacritics that made others aware something is not right...

[krisslanza]

question is, how many of those people would buy that game if they knew what they bought... don't forget all webs gave R2 quite high score, it was the player backslash on Metacritics that made others aware something is not right...

Well I got a friend to buy it, and he's not had any issues with it at all. It was a bit buggy at first, and he had to upgrade his computer to run it smoothly. But otherwise he said it was a solid purchase -although in the future, he might wait a month or two, just so he doesn't have to wait for the patches first.

From what I remember of Metacritic "reviews" from players most of them aren't even proper reviews. They're just rants and raves, or saying how it didn't work for them so they graded it at 0 or 1 as a result. While not being able to have the game run is an issue, you can't very well review a game if you didn't even play it. If it doesn't work for you, wait for some patches and try later. If it doesn't work a few months later, then you'd be justified.

[Frost, colonel]

Well I got a friend to buy it, and he's not had any issues with it at all. It was a bit buggy at first, and he had to upgrade his computer to run it smoothly. But otherwise he said it was a solid purchase -although in the future, he might wait a month or two, just so he doesn't have to wait for the patches first.

Your friend states it is a solid purchase, great, but may I ask how well he knows this series? I ask because if I was new to the series, I would initially be daunted by it's scope, and wouldn't know what was wrong with because from where would I get a comparison. Despite the AI rushing the gate(and all dying against just one unit)I would think the game was good, because you have to have a certain knowledge both to see and understand the flaws within.

[Takizama]

Well I got a friend to buy it, and he's not had any issues with it at all. It was a bit buggy at first, and he had to upgrade his computer to run it smoothly. But otherwise he said it was a solid purchase -although in the future, he might wait a month or two, just so he doesn't have to wait for the patches first.

From what I remember of Metacritic "reviews" from players most of them aren't even proper reviews. They're just rants and raves, or saying how it didn't work for them so they graded it at 0 or 1 as a result. While not being able to have the game run is an issue, you can't very well review a game if you didn't even play it. If it doesn't work for you, wait for some patches and try later. If it doesn't work a few months later, then you'd be justified.

your last sentence is a devils truth. A devils truth is a fact/ logic that has no wrong because it will be right in the future or thier is nothing to disagree with it, because it is truth with opinion. For example (This is infriging on religion a bit) God made the universe, We dont know that but people say it is a fact. Scientists say the big bang created the universe, we dont know that 100% but people say it is a fact. Thiests say that god made the big bang which created the universe. Get my point?

The Reviews are a corrupt industiry that has a misunderstood reality of being a critic. The arguement with that players give the game an unfair 0 because they are not getting paid and therefore isnt revilent. Thats a devils truth. Preech Facts please, From now on everything you say I will laugh at unless you show figues to back up your thesis.

P.S I'm not sure that what im explaing is the devils truth, it might be something else. I dont know the correct word for it.

[Dustindesrctin]

Krisslanza is right in the aspect of Obsidian barley adding anything to the game in terms of gameplay. I mean they literally stole entire mods that I had used in FO3 but that is a discussion for another time.

I do wish there was a more realistic mode in Rome II though...

[Anna_Gein]

Krisslanza is right in the aspect of Obsidian barley adding anything to the game in terms of gameplay. I mean they literally stole entire mods that I had used in FO3 but that is a discussion for another time.

I do wish there was a more realistic mode in Rome II though...

Yep. If only CA did the same for RII. Taking works and idea from all the great mods from TWC ...

Plus I don't see why it would be too low for dev's pride to take idea and whole mechanic from mods. after all if it works and fans like it.

[jpinard]

The super realistic hard mode was done as a pet project by the lead designer of Fallout new Vegas. Not too many game developers in big companies have that level of dedication to their craft (to release a full massive mod for their own game on their own time)