Still :wub: insane - the Siege AI

[AusHaching]

Three examples, all VH vanilla patch 4:

Siege of Pella

I´m playing as Rome and I´m attacking the Macedons at Pella. I´m allied to Knossos, they´ve got a fleet in the harbour. I attack the western gate with ladders and open it. Knossos lands some of it´s forces in the harbour, where they get slaughtered immediately. The rest lands on the eastern beaches.

Fine, I´m charging my cavalry through the city and conquer the eastern gate. Now my allies can come in, right? Except the don´t. AI marches it´s forces to the northern limit of the map, passing the open gate on it´s way. Only after each and every unit has moved all the way up do they come down to the open gate, of course one unit at a time. In the end, my "Allies" are entirely worthless.

Siege of Medhlan

Playing as Rome. My Roman level 1 city is being attacked by 1 1/2 stacks of Ligurians. I think that my time has come, as I have a piss poor garrison (1 Legion, 4 Rorarii, and assortec crap) and they have three siege engines, six Oathsworn and around 10 other infantry units (spears and short swords).

The battle starts promising enough, one siege engine starts firing at my gates. Meanwhile, the first (smaller) stacks starts burning my gates.

Then the retardedness starts. Instead of using it´s now three siege engines to make a breach without burning oil, poor AI decided it´s time to charge. Unsurprisingly, they get burned and slaughtered at the gates. The second stack marches across half the map (while taking fire from my towers) and charges through the same gates.

Result: Around 2.500 enemy dead, my garrison lost something like 300.

Siege of Pella, the second

This time as Athens, garrison (3 hoplites, two slingers, some mobs) under siege by a full stack of Epirus, incl. Elephants and a dozen hoplites. Result is the same: My units killed 500 men, the burning oil accounted for over 2000, lost 77 (!) men.

I think we have all figured out by now that CA decided against unwalled settlements because they couldn´t program a Siege AI if their live depended on it. As it stands, Burning Oil + Walls means automatic victory for anyone able to put his units directly behing the gate. Even if the AI brings siege engines, it is unable to even remotely do something with them. Come on CA, you could do better half a decade ago. In MTW2, the siege AI was at least able to shout breaches into walls...

Sorry for another rant. Tried looking for a similar thread, but found none on the front pages.

[Totalheadache]

Das ist Richtig! i have uninstalled on the hope it gets fixed.....

Spes oritur ut aeterna

[Humble Warrior]

Playing as Rome. My Roman level 1 city is being attacked by 1 1/2 stacks of Ligurians. I think that my time has come

In MTW2 you would have had a fight on your hands and defintely lost plenty of men if you didn`t lose outright. In that the AI knows how to use its Towers or make several breaches BEFORE attacking. Another thing I liked about MTW2 is it would increase its attacks if it lost the 1st time with more men, more siege weapons and even cannons once it developed them. I`m so sick of the bad sieges in warscape games. If CA can do sieges THEN WHY DON`T THEY?
I have also uninstalled until possibly patch 5 cos I don`t need this joke clogging up my PC when I can install something else in its place and enjoy that instead.

[Aenima]

In MTW2 you would have had a fight on your hands and defintely lost plenty of men if you didn`t lose outright. In that the AI knows how to use its Towers or make several breaches BEFORE attacking. Another thing I liked about MTW2 is it would increase its attacks if it lost the 1st time with more men, more siege weapons and even cannons once it developed them. I`m so sick of the bad sieges in warscape games. If CA can do sieges THEN WHY DON`T THEY?
I have also uninstalled until possibly patch 5 cos I don`t need this joke clogging up my PC when I can install something else in its place and enjoy that instead.

Agreed, I'm playing Stainless Steel 6.4, and the battles are above and beyond anything Rome 2 ever offered. It's not in the Ancient Era, which I prefer (think EB) but it's probably the best engine in terms of how everything looks, plays and feels (EB is great, but RTW just feels dated) and I can confirm sieges are actual siege battles, not marathons for the centre of the settlement. I have to admit that I would have lost many, many battles if I hadn't fallen back into the keep of some castles, mainly because the enem used spies to open the gates, but also because of the sheer numbers that they were sending against me and being unable to hold them at bay.

When EB2 comes out I believe that the TW community will have the RTW sequel we've been waiting for, although it may be a bit too complex for the more casual folk.

[Humble Warrior]

Agreed, I'm playing Stainless Steel 6.4, and the battles are above and beyond anything Rome 2 ever offered. It's not in the Ancient Era, which I prefer (think EB) but it's probably the best engine in terms of how everything looks, plays and feels (EB is great, but RTW just feels dated) and I can confirm sieges are actual siege battles, not marathons for the centre of the settlement. I have to admit that I would have lost many, many battles if I hadn't fallen back into the keep of some castles, mainly because the enem used spies to open the gates, but also because of the sheer numbers that they were sending against me and being unable to hold them at bay.

When EB2 comes out I believe that the TW community will have the RTW sequel we've been waiting for, although it may be a bit too complex for the more casual folk.

Hey that reminds me! Why didn`t CA at least give AI spies the ability to open the gates? That`s at least ONE thing the siege BAI could`ve used and no need to fling torches around either!

Just seems incompetent- or it`s all coming in a paid DLC called `Spies and siege Edition,` just £19.99.

[BSGfan]

well they eventually got the siege AI working in TWM 2 they will eventually get it right here aswell

[AusHaching]

I don´t think sieges are going to be fixed. Not in RTW2, and not as long as CA keeps using warscape. Consider this:

In Empire, CA got around the issue of walls by pretending every soldier is a ninja. I think we all remember placing a single unit in the middle of a fortress, only to have the AI march everyone and their dogs through the line. I haven´t played NTW, but I guess it was the same.

In S2, there were no cities under siege and each and every castle had walls that everyone was able to climb. Again, didn´t play FOTS

In RTW2, less than 1/3 of all settlements has walls. If we consider that barbarian settlements sometimes don´t really have walls, but rather just a city that is on the same elevation as the walls, the number of true walls is even less.

The reason for all of that? CA cannot make the AI attack walls properly. I guess it´s about pathfinding issues, i.e. the AI is unable to plot a way on top of or through walls. In fact, I have never seen any units beside skirmishers on walls.

As this is a fundamental issue that CA wasn´t able to fix in 4 years (at least since Empire), they´re not going to fix it at all unless a new engine is made.

[Toho]

the siege of M2TW was not all that great either. it was still pretty much: EVERYONE RUN THROUGH THE GATES.

I would have though that 10 years later we would have a better siege mechanic... but no... its even worse than before.

[Aenima]

the siege of M2TW was not all that great either. it was still pretty much: EVERYONE RUN THROUGH THE GATES.

I would have though that 10 years later we would have a better siege mechanic... but no... its even worse than before.

I'm not saying it was superb, but it did at least prepare and use siege engines, and use the well. If they've got catapults, trebuchets etc then they batter (several) holes in the walls before charging in. If not then they try to scale the walls whilst ramming the gate, stretching your lines thinly. Once they're through the gates they at least fight, which is, sadly, something that the AI seems hardly to do in Rome 2.

I agree that the past TW engines were by no means superb, but I'd say they were better than what we've got now.

I don´t think sieges are going to be fixed. Not in RTW2, and not as long as CA keeps using warscape. Consider this:

In Empire, CA got around the issue of walls by pretending every soldier is a ninja. I think we all remember placing a single unit in the middle of a fortress, only to have the AI march everyone and their dogs through the line. I haven´t played NTW, but I guess it was the same.

In S2, there were no cities under siege and each and every castle had walls that everyone was able to climb. Again, didn´t play FOTS

In RTW2, less than 1/3 of all settlements has walls. If we consider that barbarian settlements sometimes don´t really have walls, but rather just a city that is on the same elevation as the walls, the number of true walls is even less.

The reason for all of that? CA cannot make the AI attack walls properly. I guess it´s about pathfinding issues, i.e. the AI is unable to plot a way on top of or through walls. In fact, I have never seen any units beside skirmishers on walls.

As this is a fundamental issue that CA wasn´t able to fix in 4 years (at least since Empire), they´re not going to fix it at all unless a new engine is made.

True. This is the thing that I'm depressingly aware that modding won't really be able to change, as well. You can only make a sculpture out of the marble you're given, and if the marble's of poor quality, then no amount of chipping and polishing is going to change that.

[Frost, colonel]

I attacked a walled city, a full stack of my allies comes on at the other end of the map.
I am stuck trying to get through the open gate, meeting stiff resistance, the AI stack burns the gate at the other end of said city and charges in relatively unopposed, as I am facing the brunt of it. So the AI can function at times.

[Humble Warrior]

I attacked a walled city, a full stack of my allies comes on at the other end of the map.
I am stuck trying to get through the open gate, meeting stiff resistance, the AI stack burns the gate at the other end of said city and charges in relatively unopposed, as I am facing the brunt of it. So the AI can function at times.

Even a broken clock tells the time correctly twice a day.

[donkixot]

In one of my sieges (patch 3) AI used his siege weapons (kind of). I had half of my stack in the city versus 3 stacks of the AI. The siege engines started to slam my gates, while enemy units also used torches on it. They burned down the gates and rushed in. Everything was fine (as oil did most of the killing), but enemy catapults still fired on my gates (and onto the their own troops) and once gate was damaged by 100%, oil stopped and I was screwed. So there is a hope of good siege AI.
P.S. enemy reinforcing armies still didn't try to burn other gates, but marched half of the map to already assaulted ones.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

can we stop using sarcastic titles?? it would really help a lot.

[AusHaching]

can we stop using sarcastic titles?? it would really help a lot.

Is the title really that sarcastic? After all, the tactical decisions by the Siege AI are insane. BTW, the wasn´t really bad, the filter here is quite strict.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Medieval 2 was made by Australians. Just sayin.

[Aenima]

Medieval 2 was made by Australians. Just sayin.

Makes sense, since behind us boozed up Brits you 'Strayans are well known for drunken brawling.

The apple on the other side of the planet doesn't fall too far from the Imperial tree.

[Naked Emperor]

I just won a battle with the A.I assaulting Appolonia. I'm Sparta and some Illyrians attacked with 2 stacks and I only had my garrison in a settlement without walls. They had lots of Illyrian Hoplites that didn't bode well for me. I just did what I always do parked my units in the way to the flag and the A.I bumrushed with everything it had that didn't get stuck trying to beach or stood braindead there after jumping off their vessel (naval assault). So finally the A.I managed enough oomph to push through my units and encircle and finally the A.I had 3 units of Illyrian Hoplites contesting my flag and I had a unit of depleted Helot slingers, only 40 men left. I stood there slinging those Hoplites to death while they contested the flag but I was at the border of the contesting circle so they never captured it....finally I ran out of ammo and just waited until the timer ran out winning the battle with around 250 Illyrian Hoplites a charging distance away from my slingers.......

Also it seems that to win defending in a siege you just have to park a unit on the walls....the A.I has on numerous occasions just sat there under the walls, this is by the way on the inside of the city, while my slingers have been pelting them to death...and when they run out of ammo I just fast forward and win the battle.

On the issue of M2TW the Siege A.I is stupid there as well, dropping all siege equipment at the first breach and trying to rush through....or trying to get a whole army up 1 ladder...not 4 like a whole unit got...but sometimes they had a depleted unit that got 1 ladder and all the men would bunch around it trying to get up....it was an archers dream come true.....I just wish that my crossbowmen would have worked properly manning the walls. The only difference is that in M2TW the men stopped to fight when they came in contact with another unit so you would fight a A.I superblob at the breach or gates

[Humble Warrior]

On the issue of M2TW the Siege A.I is stupid there as well, dropping all siege equipment at the first breach and trying to rush through....or trying to get a whole army up 1 ladder...not 4 like a whole unit got...but sometimes they had a depleted unit that got 1 ladder and all the men would bunch around it trying to get up....it was an archers dream come true.....I just wish that my crossbowmen would have worked properly manning the walls. The only difference is that in M2TW the men stopped to fight when they came in contact with another unit so you would fight a A.I superblob at the breach or gates

But at least it worked! Consistently!


You`re also wrong on most of what you`ve said, but i`m not going to go through it with you as you obviously know and are just repeatiing the same old stubborn point to try and make MTW2 look as bad as RTW2 which it is not. When will people like you admit that RTW2 sieges plain don`t work right?

[Toho]

But at least it worked! Consistently!


You`re also wrong on most of what you`ve said, but i`m not going to go through it with you as you obviously know and are just repeatiing the same old stubborn point to try and make MTW2 look as bad as RTW2 which it is not. When will people like you admit that RTW2 sieges plain don`t work right?

M2TW siege mechanic: garbage.
R2TW siege mechanic: turd on a stick.

in the garbage you might find something useful but a turd on a stick speaks for itself.
for R2 i expected the archers to work properly unlike M2TW, I expected the AI to attack several points with various siege engines and other protective set ups like Palisades and etc...

they are both bad and unenjoyable. R2 was suppose to FINALLY give us a siege battle that was challenging, realistic and etc...
what did we get instead? the same putrid turd we tried to get away from at the best of times.

even if the AI stopped being retarded and throwing torches at the IRON gate will it be able to do what is expected of it after 10 bloody years? I hope so.

[Naked Emperor]

But at least it worked! Consistently!


You`re also wrong on most of what you`ve said, but i`m not going to go through it with you as you obviously know and are just repeatiing the same old stubborn point to try and make MTW2 look as bad as RTW2 which it is not. When will people like you admit that RTW2 sieges plain don`t work right?

No, I know that the Siege A.I doesn't work in Rome2. It doesn't work while defending nor attacking, if you read the first part of my earlier post you see I've cheesed my way to victory on numerous occasions. I've walked into settlements with 1 unit capturing the flag while a whole A.I army has stood and watched just a bowshot away. I've defended a city with one slinger unit left standing on the walls while the A.I army stared at it from the inside of the city instead of taking the flags. I've seen the A.I breach my walls with Ballistae only to break down the gates and rush the whole army through the gates through boiling oil.
I've seen the Romans assaulting my city charging skirmishers at my gates to burn them down and getting slaughtered while they charged through and while all the their legionaries were turtling around the map in a testudo..and then slowly trudging through the gates in testudo getting slaughtered.

I have defeated over 10.000 strong battle hardened Spartan army consisting of Spartan Hoplites and Spartan Pikemen with a paltry garrison because they tried to rush through 2 units of perikloi pikes and perikloi hoplites with some Spartan youths backing them up. I parked half an army in that city and defeated 12 stacks of rebel Spartans that assaulted until I had killed them all, that must be the epitome of broken A.I. I know that most of the time if the A.I brings more than 40 units to a fight the additional reinforcements will stand idle at the edge of the map. I can count on that many of the disembarked A.I units will just stand idle on the beach and I know when the A.I brings a cavalry army to your gates they won't even bother to dismount to try to burn down the gates and will just stand there idly.


I just wanted to point out that Medieval 2 and if we go that way almost all TW games have had crappy, buggy A.I at launch that in many cases never got fixed. But the A.I in Medieval 2 is just sunshine and happiness compared to Rome 2, because Rome 2 really takes the cake in crappy A.I out of the box.