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Thread: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    All ranks fire can be OP - I recommend only Sharpshooters have it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    As far as I know, Japan used old (Sengoku ships?) and modern ships simultaneously. Most modern ships were outdated ships from the West though...
    Nah, They use Western-styled Sailing Ships; and they were enthusiastic in having the newest steam ships - there are like a dozen more steamships and an Ironclad used in the time that aren't represented in the game.

    In the end, Lets just say the already existing ships in-game represents those too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    Ships are limited to 1 of each type
    Too limiting. There is no telling that if the war escalates, The Domains will commision more ships with similar specifications, if not from the same class.
    Last edited by weirdoascensor; March 31, 2014 at 12:15 PM.

  2. #162
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    All ranks fire can be OP - I recommend only Sharpshooters have it.
    Then the line infantry would be quite useless. I am going to modify the accuracy and spread until the casualties are fair. Right now, they're still too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    Too limiting. There is no telling that if the war escalates, The Domains will commision more ships with similar specifications, if not from the same class.
    Caps can easily be increased if that is necessary.

    Great news: thanks to Frodo's advice, I've done it! I've removed useless special abilities by putting my units_to_unit_abilities_junctions table into a separate pack file marked as "patch". The game now uses my file and not the one from CA with all the fantasy abilities.
    Now I can "clean" the game to get rid of all unwanted building chains, effects, garrisons etc.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  3. #163
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    All ranks fire can be OP - I recommend only Sharpshooters have it.
    Then I guess 'small' unit size is OP, as well? I agree with Destin, all they need are some stat changes to compensate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    Then the line infantry would be quite useless. I am going to modify the accuracy and spread until the casualties are fair. Right now, they're still too high.
    Ammo should also be increased to make-up for the lower kill rates. Accuracy should be lowered less than spread, I find it odd when soldiers shoot straight into the ground.
    Great news: thanks to Frodo's advice, I've done it! I've removed useless special abilities by putting my units_to_unit_abilities_junctions table into a separate pack file marked as "patch". The game now uses my file and not the one from CA with all the fantasy abilities.
    Now I can "clean" the game to get rid of all unwanted building chains, effects, garrisons etc.
    Must the pack be simply named "patch" or be designated as one?

  4. #164
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    Must the pack be simply named "patch" or be designated as one?
    The latter one. Use the PFM to change the pack type to patch. This usually leads to a crash (the PFM has lots of issues), but it works nonetheless.
    My Mod:
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  5. #165
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    The latter one. Use the PFM to change the pack type to patch. This usually leads to a crash (the PFM has lots of issues), but it works nonetheless.
    Thanks I just ignore those crash errors anyways.
    Last edited by SD_Man; April 01, 2014 at 08:47 PM.

  6. #166

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Really looking forward to the campaign release. Good mods for FOTS are hard to come by, and all of the random fantasy units in Darth and Radious are a bit of a turnoff for me.
    The above post is in a pre-alpha state and does not nessecarily reflect the final writings of the poster. As such the poster cannot be held responsible for any statements made in this post.

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    Then I guess 'small' unit size is OP, as well? I agree with Destin, all they need are some stat changes to compensate.
    The ability for all ranks to fire simultaneously for skirmishers and sharpshooters will be balanced by their small unit size and slower reload time(except for Repeater Rifles)

    Oh, do you have thought about the rearrangement of The Aizu Army? In vanilla FoTS, All of them are just Line Infantry with progressive tiers: White Tigers(Replaces Levy Inf)<Black Tortoises(Replaces Line Inf)< Azure Dragons<Vermillion Birds(same tier as Shogunate Inf).
    In Reality, White Tigers are Teenager Reservists. Black Tortoises Old Reservists. Azure Dragons are Young Guards, and Vermilion Phoenix the more experienced Frontline Troops.
    So, how about making Azure Dragons their Line Infantry, and Vermilion Birds as the better version of it, somewhere between Line Inf with the better Tokugawa Shogunate Infantry. Bring back the Levy Infantry, and change the role of White Tigers into some short-ranged light infantry complement. I don't remember, Is garrison units replaceable? If so, then Black Tortoises could replace Garrison Infantry. I'm not quite sure though about The White Tigers - Historically they're few in numbers. Anybody have a better idea?

    Also, Choshu Kiheitai in vanilla FoTS are Elite Infantry who are better than both Line Inf and White Bears, making Choshu players no need for them and just go straight recruit Kiheitai. It is true, that Kiheitai should be recruited from the start (They are assembled in 1863), basically Elite Volunteer Unit made of Eccentric Samurai along with other men from many walks of life that uses Modern Rifles and Tactics, financed by the Merchant Class...However, They should be limited to only about 3-4 Company.

  8. #168
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    The ability for all ranks to fire simultaneously for skirmishers and sharpshooters will be balanced by their small unit size and slower reload time(except for Repeater Rifles)
    All ranks fire for everyone does work well in Empire Realism and I will tweak it to work in my mod as well. Sharpshooter units now have only 50 men, but they have the smallest hitboxes, the best accuracy and special projectiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    Oh, do you have thought about the rearrangement of The Aizu Army? In vanilla FoTS, All of them are just Line Infantry with progressive tiers: White Tigers(Replaces Levy Inf)<Black Tortoises(Replaces Line Inf)< Azure Dragons<Vermillion Birds(same tier as Shogunate Inf).
    Right now, Aizu's unique troops are capped in accordance with their historical numbers. Except for the White Tigers, all of them are standard minie line infantry troops. The White Tigers use katanas instead of bayonets as shown on several pictures.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    I don't remember, Is garrison units replaceable? If so, then Black Tortoises could replace Garrison Infantry.
    I have tried to add the Josuhitai as an Aizu-specific garrison unit (via units_to_groupings_military_permission and units_to_exclusive_faction_permission), but the game doesn't seem to care about it. Now everyone has them.
    Is it possible to have faction-specific garrison units?

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    Also, Choshu Kiheitai in vanilla FoTS are Elite Infantry who are better than both Line Inf and White Bears, making Choshu players no need for them and just go straight recruit Kiheitai. It is true, that Kiheitai should be recruited from the start (They are assembled in 1863), basically Elite Volunteer Unit made of Eccentric Samurai along with other men from many walks of life that uses Modern Rifles and Tactics, financed by the Merchant Class...However, They should be limited to only about 3-4 Company.
    Kiheitai are capped to 2. Besides, I am thinking about turning them into a mix of line and light infantry, just like the Freikorps in Empire Realism.

    I also tried to add Nagaoka Gatling Guns to the game, but it crashes whenever I try to use them in battle. This is fascinating because they are a direct copy of the normal gatling guns and should therefore work without flaws. How I hate this engine and its lack of crashlogs.

    Besides, I am also unable to create a startpos file which is needed to finish the campaign part of my mod. Despite deleting the empty bob rule file, they game doesn't want to create a Boshin startpos. The ones for Sengoku and Genpei work without flaws. What could be the problem?
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  9. #169
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    Azure Dragons are Young Guards, and Vermilion Phoenix the more experienced Frontline Troops.
    Other way around. The Azures are the middle-aged men with experience while the Vermilion are their younger morale charged counterparts.
    I'm not quite sure though about The White Tigers - Historically they're few in numbers. Anybody have a better idea?
    Perhaps they can be given smaller numbers but changed into a hybrid unit between levy infantry and pioneers. They should also be given the 'inspire' attribute (I would imagine that seeing a teenage reservist die and fight is enough to put any grown man to shame).

  10. #170

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Skirmishers and sharpshooters did not usually fight in ranks. Even in Napoleon's time, they often spread in loose formation. Line infantry used fire by rank.

    There should be a shift from line infantry to light infantry; the Chassepot and other rifles made line infatry obsolete.
    A message to CA:

    Either care about history or improve modding support.

  11. #171

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Skirmishers and sharpshooters did not usually fight in ranks. Even in Napoleon's time, they often spread in loose formation. Line infantry used fire by rank.

    There should be a shift from line infantry to light infantry; the Chassepot and other rifles made line infatry obsolete.
    In Napoleon's time, most nations took skirmishers from the line. Usually it was the third line of men in line regiments who could be split off and form a skirmish line. The employment of dedicated light infantry units varied from nation to nation. In the UK and Russia, 'light' or 'jaeger' regiments were basically line infantry in a different uniform until late in the wars.

    I'm pretty sure that closed rank linear tactics had largely vanished in Europe and the US by the 1870's. Photos and drawings from the Franco-Prussian and Russo-Turkish war of the period seem to indicate that most units fought in open order, for the most part. I don't know about the situation in Japan at this point, but I imagine an influx of rifled weapons and western advisers would mean that any such shift would take place very quickly indeed.
    The above post is in a pre-alpha state and does not nessecarily reflect the final writings of the poster. As such the poster cannot be held responsible for any statements made in this post.

  12. #172

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Japan had not fought a major war for decades at this time, so units with muskets or obsolete rifles should fight in lines as they did before. Later units with better rifles should fight in open order.
    A message to CA:

    Either care about history or improve modding support.

  13. #173
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Japan had not fought a major war for decades at this time, so units with muskets or obsolete rifles should fight in lines as they did before.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Later units with better rifles should fight in open order.
    Loose formation could do the trick.

    I've also thought about a new tech tree. It would start with "Rangaku" or "Oyatoi gaikokujin". Afterwards, you can start modernizing the country:
    - Post-Napoleonic Warfare: Japan familiarizes itself with modern warfare. It leads to "Modern Infantry", "Modern Cavalry", "Irregular Warfare" and finally "Guard Units".
    - Arms Deals: contact potential Western arms dealers. Prerequisite for importing "Outdated Western ships", "Outdated Artillery" and "Minie Rifles". Leads to "Modern Shipyards", "Modern Artillery" and "Modern Rifles". Last one is "Chassepot rifles". It would be great if I could somehow add the "French Military Mission" for the Shogunate. It would require the French trading port and would unlock modern Denshutai units.
    To use the new units, you need the theoretical background and the appropriate weapons. Maybe I should also add some kind of "naval warfare theory".
    Most of the cultural techs will probably stay the same.
    My Mod:
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  14. #174

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    I've noticed the "Shaguma-tai (Kindai) | Tosa" (what a mouthful) have something sticking out of their back when reloading. This was playing as Tosa. I haven't noticed any other problems, but line infantry have a very long range, too long. Not that I doubt a trained soldier could shoot that far, just I don't think they could see that distance.
    Revolvers also seem to have a range too short by comparison. And Yari Ashigaru are too expensive compared to Yari Samurai when comparing their stats IMO. I think The Yari Samurai need to be more expensive to balance out.

  15. #175
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzard View Post
    I've noticed the "Shaguma-tai (Kindai) | Tosa" (what a mouthful) have something sticking out of their back when reloading. This was playing as Tosa.
    So the modernized Red Bears show strange reloading animation behaviour? I'll have a look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzard View Post
    I haven't noticed any other problems, but line infantry have a very long range, too long. Not that I doubt a trained soldier could shoot that far, just I don't think they could see that distance.
    These are realistic effective killing ranges. Units were able to see and shoot that far. You can use hills as cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzard View Post
    Revolvers also seem to have a range too short by comparison.
    I wasn't able to find a proper value for the effective killing range of a revolver (most likely Smith&Wesson Model No. 2). A webpage claimed that revolvers had an effective killing range of 60-70 yards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzard View Post
    And Yari Ashigaru are too expensive compared to Yari Samurai when comparing their stats IMO. I think The Yari Samurai need to be more expensive to balance out.
    This is a realism mod. Ashigaru are expensive because you have to equip and train them.
    Samurai don't need training and equipment. They have their fiefs and use the revenue to buy gear and train themselves. When you require their services, they come and serve in your army. That's the reason why samurai are cheap and can be recruited immediately. However, they are limited (1 of each samurai unit per castle) and the Boshin samurai are not very skilled (200 years of peace and administration lowered the samurai's warrior abilities).
    Ashigaru, on the other hand, are much more numerous (4 of each type per barracks).

    I've also managed to find the culprit causing the crashes. It was the garrison table. Shame on it! Hopefully, this will allow me to continue modding.
    Last edited by Destin Faroda; April 09, 2014 at 03:33 PM.
    My Mod:
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  16. #176
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    I'm thrilled you guys are working on this mod. However I have one huge issue... The range of rifles, while it may be realistic, is making the game unplayable for me. I would prefer vanilla ranges but realism stats for everything else. I can't hardly do any sort of maneuvering in FOTS its just a minie-ball slug fest. Default balance for FOTS is comepletely broken... Please take my concerns into consideration.

  17. #177
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    I too find the lethality to be way too high. I've already decreased projectile accuracy and increased projectile spread. It will be further finetuned until it "feels" right.
    The light infantry unit size has been reduced to 50, like in Empire Realism. They are deadly, but weak against cavalry and in melee.
    Unfortunately, I can't use a 3:1 scale like in Empire Realism as the game covers 3 eras: Genpei, Sengoku and Boshin. In custom battle mode, you can fight with Genpei troops against Boshin troops, so my new game mechanics have to be universal.

    Recently, I've also updated most of the unit descriptions. An example:
    Name: Haguma-tai | Choshu
    Short description: The White Bear Infantry - line infantry armed with Minie rifles and socket bayonets - is trained to stand in line and fire on approaching enemies.
    Long description: Original CA description
    Strength and weaknesses: Average accuracy and reload rate.||Below average in melee.||Minie rifle has long range, mediocre accuracy and long reload rate.||Average morale.||Good against cavalry.
    This allows me to:
    - keep the Japanese unit names
    - specify the English name, weapons and battlefield role
    - improve the strength and weakness system
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  18. #178
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    I thought the "Bear Infantry" units fought with swords not bayonets?


    I know its not the right species of bear but I would guess that they were very similar.

  19. #179
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    These are Shaguma-tai officers. Only officers from Tosa wore red bear wigs (actually, they were made of yak tail, but that doesn't sound as dangerous).
    In my mod, officers usually use katanas or revolvers + sabres.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  20. #180

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    A weapon is only as accurate as the wielder. Accuracy at long range with a modern rifle also depends on the troops using them. For those who complain that units are cut down too fast, remember that this is not far from World War 1 technology. Close order = death by the end of the FOTS period.
    A message to CA:

    Either care about history or improve modding support.

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