Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

[Obi Wan Asterix]

Looking forward lads! I am going to put out a TROM3 update soon, but very much looking forward to this here.

[Destin Faroda]

New unit stats are out: https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...-and-Modifiers
- They now acknowledge 1H and 2H grip for swords and spears
- Defense was slightly increased
- New experience progression: level 0 = untrained troops, level 1 = basic training, level 2 = normal training and level 5 = elite troops
- New unit qualities and modifiers

What do you think?

Besides, I also managed to find a post from kugkings where he explains how to introduce dynamic unit caps. This method is brilliant and way easier than the region resource approach (region resource is intended for unique troops tied to a province like Kyoto Police or Edo's Shinchou-gumi).
Now most unit caps will be tied to the appropriate military buildings.
Example:
- build a barracks and you can have up to, say, 2 Imperial Line Infantry
- build a barracks in another province and now you can sustain 4
- etc.

[SD_Man]

Will the gatling gun/cannon numbers be changed to better represent the "realism"? E.g. only one artillery piece per gatling gun unit, one unit cap, but somewhat overpowered. Of course, this would cause imbalance for unit sizes smaller than 'ultra' but perhaps 4 separate versions can be released to compensate?

Also, will there be more elaborate projectiles per unit? Such as: Snider-Enfields, Chassepots, Spencers,etc. As of now, I only notice the default guns in the projectiles table, not highly representative of the large armory of guns of that period (each with their own strengths and weakneses). Though this does mean that some realism must be sacrificed, or else the Chassepot rifle would be completely OP.

[Destin Faroda]

Will the gatling gun/cannon numbers be changed to better represent the "realism"? E.g. only one artillery piece per gatling gun unit, one unit cap, but somewhat overpowered. Of course, this would cause imbalance for unit sizes smaller than 'ultra' but perhaps 4 separate versions can be released to compensate?

Gatling guns => 20 men and 2 guns

Also, will there be more elaborate projectiles per unit? Such as: Snider-Enfields, Chassepots, Spencers,etc.

Have a look at my weapon stats table: https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...ki/Projectiles
Ignore the lower table as it is outdated.

As of now, I only notice the default guns in the projectiles table, not highly representative of the large armory of guns of that period (each with their own strengths and weakneses).

FotS already has the following projectiles:
- boshin_breech_loading_rifle -> Snider_Enfield
- boshin_carbine -> Carbine
- boshin_matchlock -> Tanegashima musket
- boshin_repeating_rifle -> Spencer
- revolver -> Revolver
- boshin_rifle -> Minie rifle
- boshin_sharpshooter_rifle -> Chassepot

Though this does mean that some realism must be sacrificed, or else the Chassepot rifle would be completely OP.

The chassepot is the best rifle in the game. However, I have reduced the effective killing range from 1200m to 600m. The reason: the French soldiers used 600m as effective killing range during the Franco-Prussian War.
In my mod, chassepots (which were brand new at that time and very expensive) are limited to skirmishers. Elite units use Snider-Enfields. I might outfit the Shogunate Guard Infantry with chassepots instead of sniders because Napoleon III sent a gift of chassepots, horses and artillery to the Shogun.

[weirdoascensor]

FotS already has the following projectiles:
- boshin_breech_loading_rifle -> Snider_Enfield
- boshin_carbine -> Carbine
- boshin_matchlock -> Tanegashima musket
- boshin_repeating_rifle -> Spencer
- revolver -> Revolver
- boshin_rifle -> Minie rifle
- boshin_sharpshooter_rifle -> Chassepot
The chassepot is the best rifle in the game. However, I have reduced the effective killing range from 1200m to 600m. The reason: the French soldiers used 600m as effective killing range during the Franco-Prussian War.
In my mod, chassepots (which were brand new at that time and very expensive) are limited to skirmishers. Elite units use Snider-Enfields. I might outfit the Shogunate Guard Infantry with chassepots instead of sniders because Napoleon III sent a gift of chassepots, horses and artillery to the Shogun.

No, you should elaborate the projectiles - not by the gun types alone, but also by Role.

You cannot simply assume Chassepot=boshin_sharpshooter - this projectile has longer range, but very long reloading times. It mean this projectile is supposed for Light Infantry - skirmishing in front and flanks of the main line, and sniping fortifications; using limited carefully aimed shots at longer ranges.
The Denshutai Guards, who were equipped by Chassepots weren't Light Infantry by role. Remember, that this projectile is assigned for Sharpshooters and Yugekitai; Both uses Muzzleloader Long Rifles. They are different. Except, you make a new special Chassepot sharpshooter unit.

In essence, you need to differentiate the projectiles for Muzzleloader Sharpshooter, Breechloader Infantry, and Breechloader Sharpshooters(even them have long reloads, to simulate long aiming time)

In addition, for sharpshooting projectiles I say you should add supressive attribute to simulate the terror of being sniped outside of common fighting ranges.

I might outfit the Shogunate Guard Infantry with chassepots instead of sniders because Napoleon III sent a gift of chassepots, horses and artillery to the Shogun.

You Should.

Gatling guns => 20 men and 2 guns

Even without this reduction on the number of guns, I rarely brought Gatling when a Company of Kneel-Fire Breechloader-Wielding Infantry can do pretty much the same job with more mobility. In Real Life, the problem with Gatling and Mitrailleuse during the 19th Century is that they were used as Artillery, hence limiting their offensive potential.
So I suggest:
-Make several special Gatling-only battle_entities that have faster walking speeds, especially the gun train pulling horses.
-Change the boshin_gatling_gun shot_type into supression_shot. This will make the gun capable of slowing down enemies it shoot at. Remember to set the supression_fire_move_speed to negative in _kv_special_abilities_effects

In an another topic, by adding The Tokugawa Shogunate as a Main Faction with vast territories, you should add some limiter to give Imperials a fighting chance against such power, and to make the player some challenge - playing overpowered faction isn't particularly fun.

It should have the feel of "Crumbling Superpower". Alas, The Shogunate isn't surrounded by Imperials thanks to the geography of Japan, not to mention Imperialists powerbase are in the faraway South West. Therefore, I suggest to give it a Factional Weakness Trait - in form of increased resistance or public order penalties from Imperialist Influence in several forms. Maybe also lower agent success or allegiance conversion penalties. It is needed to simulate the rise of opposition to the old order.

[Destin Faroda]

No, you should elaborate the projectiles - not by the gun types alone, but also by Role.

In that case, I'll add another chassepot projectile with full range, but lower reloading time.

In addition, for sharpshooting projectiles I say you should add supressive attribute to simulate the terror of being sniped outside of common fighting ranges.

I'll do that.

-Make several special Gatling-only battle_entities that have faster walking speeds, especially the gun train pulling horses.
-Change the boshin_gatling_gun shot_type into supression_shot. This will make the gun capable of slowing down enemies it shoot at. Remember to set the supression_fire_move_speed to negative in _kv_special_abilities_effects

Gatling guns already are the fastest moving artillery and now they have the suppressive ability.

It should have the feel of "Crumbling Superpower". Alas, The Shogunate isn't surrounded by Imperials thanks to the geography of Japan, not to mention Imperialists powerbase are in the faraway South West. Therefore, I suggest to give it a Factional Weakness Trait - in form of increased resistance or public order penalties from Imperialist Influence in several forms. Maybe also lower agent success or allegiance conversion penalties. It is needed to simulate the rise of opposition to the old order.

That's an excellent idea. I am already aiming at having more rebellions to stimulate the need for the new police troops. I could also lower the Tokugawa's honour (Perry insulted them with the Unequal Treaties) and force them to not switch ideologies.
I also thought about simulating early street battles between Imperialists and the Shogunate by adding small, cheap guerrilla regiments. However, sending them into the enemy's towns will only lead to siege battles. I doubt that there's a disguise or sneak into town ability which would make this idea interesting.

[SD_Man]

There were only three gatling guns in the history of the Boshin War, thus there should realistically only be one gun per unit, one unit per army. Increasing their firing rate/damage is easy: either increase their damage value or their 'projectile_number' to a value higher than 1(anything higher than 2 is overkill unless damage is adjusted). Increasing projectile number is what I did, so now they fire at around 360 rpm with an ammo cost of only 180 (BTW does reload skill or reload time affect the gatling gun's firing rate?).

I agree with weirdoacensor, they should be given suppression shot attribute and not 'suppression ability.' The suppression ability gives the unit the 'suppression projectile,' thus replacing the unit's current "weapon." The attribute differs in that it gives the effect without changing the weapon projectile.

[Destin Faroda]

There were only three gatling guns in the history of the Boshin War, thus there should realistically only be one gun per unit, one unit per army.

Actually, Nagaoka had two gatling guns while the Choshu/Satsuma alliance had the third one. I've limited the gatling gun to these factions. Let's not forget the Kotetsu's gatling gun.

Increasing their firing rate/damage is easy: either increase their damage value or their 'projectile_number' to a value higher than 1(anything higher than 2 is overkill unless damage is adjusted). Increasing projectile number is what I did, so now they fire at around 360 rpm with an ammo cost of only 180 (BTW does reload skill or reload time affect the gatling gun's firing rate?).

They're deadly enough as it is.

I agree with weirdoacensor, they should be given suppression shot attribute and not 'suppression ability.'

I gave the "suppression shot" to the gatling and the new sharpshooter projectiles.

Now does anyone know how to get rid of original tables? I want to tell the game to use my unit_to_unit_ability_junction table and not the original one. Some units still have undesired abilities like kneel fire and banzai.

[SD_Man]

Actually, Nagaoka had two gatling guns while the Choshu/Satsuma alliance had the third one. I've limited the gatling gun to these factions. Let's not forget the Kotetsu's gatling gun.

Sounds reasonable but they should still be limited to realistic standards. Also, will the other factions also get access to the guns, if not a 'light' version.

They're deadly enough as it is.

Just a suggestion to compensate for my proposed limits. And to be able to fire at a more 1:1 rate.

Now does anyone know how to get rid of original tables? I want to tell the game to use my unit_to_unit_ability_junction table and not the original one. Some units still have undesired abilities like kneel fire and banzai.

I havent found a solution for this pesky problem but I devised a workaround: (Assuming that you use [insert ability]) Go into 'unit_abilities' and there is a column called 'supersedes_ability'; locate [insert ability] and in its column (supersedes_ability) enter 'kneel_fire.' This will make it so that any ability can be overruled and essentially made absent.

I dont see why you would want to remove kneel fire though? Even with 'all ranks fire' attribute enabled, the soldiers dont actually all fire, kneel fire mitigates this problem; and the kneeling helps to make the soldiers smaller targets, as well, not just cosmetic effect.

[weirdoascensor]

Huh, what's with all this "Only a few Gatling Guns were actually sold to Japan"? This is an alternate universe-game - In reality Boshin War - Seinan War never got this bloody. If Boshin War got blown into a full-scale Civil War like in the game, its very plausible that The Japanese would simply order up more Gatlings...

Its not like US only produced several dozens of Gatling Gun ever...The much-more Problematic one are Ships: There are only 2 Stonewall-Class Ironclads that ever existed: The Japanese Kotetsu and The Prussian Prinz Adalbert. Warrior-Class, L'Ocean-Class, and Roanoke were never sold nor fielded in the Far East. Kaiyo Maru, Kasuga, Kaiten, Kanko Maru, and even the humble Chiyodagata never had sister ships of its class...(Kanrin Maru has a sister, Zr. Ms. Bali)

But again, Its not unlikely that The Japanese will buy more, or convert ships hulls if the war ever escalated that far...They are just representations of any other ships that could possibly be commisioned...

[Destin Faroda]

I havent found a solution for this pesky problem but I devised a workaround: (Assuming that you use [insert ability]) Go into 'unit_abilities' and there is a column called 'supersedes_ability'; locate [insert ability] and in its column (supersedes_ability) enter 'kneel_fire.' This will make it so that any ability can be overruled and essentially made absent.

That's a promising workaround. I'll try that.
Frodo - the creator of better maps - claimed that is it possible to overwrite the original files. Unfortunately, I don't know how it works. I need that knowledge for the garrisons and building effects. Right now, I use "dirty" methods like disabling building chains by giving them the non-existing animist religion.

I dont see why you would want to remove kneel fire though?

It's unrealistic to switch from ranked fire to such an inferior tactic. Ranked fire is the standard drill for line infantry.

Huh, what's with all this "Only a few Gatling Guns were actually sold to Japan"? This is an alternate universe-game - In reality Boshin War - Seinan War never got this bloody. If Boshin War got blown into a full-scale Civil War like in the game, its very plausible that The Japanese would simply order up more Gatlings...

At least it makes Nagaoka unique. Otherwise, this faction is absolutely bland, just like Ueno, Saga and Obama. I can't find a single unique unit for them.

The much-more Problematic one are Ships: There are only 2 Stonewall-Class Ironclads that ever existed: The Japanese Kotetsu and The Prussian Prinz Adalbert. Warrior-Class, L'Ocean-Class, and Roanoke were never sold nor fielded in the Far East. Kaiyo Maru, Kasuga, Kaiten, Kanko Maru, and even the humble Chiyodagata never had sister ships of its class...(Kanrin Maru has a sister, Zr. Ms. Bali)

But again, Its not unlikely that The Japanese will buy more, or convert ships hulls if the war ever escalated that far...They are just representations of any other ships that could possibly be commisioned...

As far as I know, Japan used old (Sengoku ships?) and modern ships simultaneously. Most modern ships were outdated ships from the West though, but naval combat was rather unimportant during that conflict and I want to reflect that ingame. To be honest, naval warfare is the weakest part of my mod. There is still a lot to do to improve naval combat.

[SD_Man]

Gatling guns werent actually that prevalent in the Civil War but perhaps their unit caps could be made dynamic (research tech)?

As to kneel fire, it certainly isnt inferior to rank fire, at least in my testing. I find rank fire to be too scripted (not to mention buggy) and irrelevant compared to 'all ranks fire.' Even without all ranks, an elite unit will always outshoot the same unit under rank fire, specifically because the animation is just too slow. Unless these animations could be sped up, rank fire will remain the impractical solution. Similar things can be said for Light Infantry Behavior.

As to why kneel fire is superior to 'all ranks': Like with rank fire, no formation ability is without its flaws. Although all unit ranks will fire, this doesnt mean that all soldiers will fire (some will just idle by and not attempt to shoot until the soldiers close to them have been gunned down). Kneel fire resolves this by making all soldiers (within two ranks) be able to fire, thus increasing efficiency. Another benefit, kneeled soldiers make smaller targets and therefore harder to kill; in my tests, kneel fire always wins out and proves superior.

[Swerg]

Rather than making such a powerful unit as the Gatling gun exclusive to two factions, perhaps it should just be easier for them to get? Let them get it from foreign ports rather than having to research and build high end artillery buildings, for instance.

[Destin Faroda]

As to kneel fire, it certainly isnt inferior to rank fire, at least in my testing. I find rank fire to be too scripted (not to mention buggy) and irrelevant compared to 'all ranks fire.' Even without all ranks, an elite unit will always outshoot the same unit under rank fire, specifically because the animation is just too slow. Unless these animations could be sped up, rank fire will remain the impractical solution.

- With kneel fire, 1/3 of the men don't participate in combat
- During the Boshin war, troops fought with Napoleonic tactics -> ranked fire
- Troops using ranked fire receive a small reloading bonus
Alternative: JaM removed all those fire tactics in Empire Realism and Napoleon Realism. All troops and all ranks fire at will and reload as fast as they can. It works well and minimizes problems.

Rather than making such a powerful unit as the Gatling gun exclusive to two factions, perhaps it should just be easier for them to get? Let them get it from foreign ports rather than having to research and build high end artillery buildings, for instance.

What about this?
Nagaoka: 20 men, 2 gatling guns
Everyone else: 10 men, 1 gatling gun

Everyone can use a gatling gun and Nagaoka receives a little uniqueness.
Saga was one of the most modern domains and built the first Western style ship, the Ryofumaru. What about some marines with spencer rifles?
The Tsu sound like sneaky opportunists. Maybe some unique guerilla skirmishers would fit them well.

[SD_Man]

- With kneel fire, 1/3 of the men don't participate in combat

Did you happen to put 'kneel fire' and 'rank fire' on at the same time? Don't do this. I experienced the same thing at first before I realized that these two abilities counteract each other, breaking the formation. Test it again, without rank fire, and you'll see the difference.

- During the Boshin war, troops fought with Napoleonic tactics -> ranked fire

*Advanced Napoleonic tactics: most strategies (notably column and square formation) were outdated and eventually abandoned during the time frame as the increasing firing output (rpm) and accuracy of the guns made them obsolete. E.g. 'column' became obsolete as the artillery became more accurate and 'square' as higher reload rates made cavalry less of a threat. Not to mention guerrilla warfare, a major aspect in the Boshin War, and something Napoleon wouldn't be caught dead using.

- Troops using ranked fire receive a small reloading bonus

The problem is not reload rate, its the animation. It takes far too long for one rank to transition to the other; reload rate has no bearing on this.

Alternative: JaM removed all those fire tactics in Empire Realism and Napoleon Realism. All troops and all ranks fire at will and reload as fast as they can. It works well and minimizes problems.

This is kind of what Im saying.

What about this?
Nagaoka: 20 men, 2 gatling guns
Everyone else: 10 men, 1 gatling gun

Seems good to me.

[Yerevan]

As far as I know, Japan used old (Sengoku ships?) and modern ships simultaneously. Most modern ships were outdated ships from the West though, but naval combat was rather unimportant during that conflict and I want to reflect that ingame. To be honest, naval warfare is the weakest part of my mod. There is still a lot to do to improve naval combat.

Yes and I found the boat spam was game breaking. To have to chase all those solitary AI boats aropund the shores was one of the only flaw of the game IMO.

THose rare modern ships you mention seems to have been as rare as decisive in the very few naval battles that took place during Boshin war.

[Destin Faroda]

So what fire tactics system shall I use:
1) JaM's system: all units and all ranks fire at will. This avoids many problems and errors caused by CA's bad AI and pathfinding programming.
2) Progression system: early Boshin units use Napoleonic tactics with tight formations while modernized/elite troops prefer looser formations and fire at will.

Ships are limited to 1 of each type and the CAI will be convinced to concentrate on land combat.

Frodo just told me that it might be possible to overwrite original tables by adding my new tables to a separate pack file marked as "patch". If that works, then I can finally add a bunch of new tables dealing with abilities, buildings, effects and garrisons.

By the way, the game is constantly crashing whenever I try to play with the Goshin-pei cavalry or the Kiheitai. Did you notice that too? I've fixed all errors and checked the files at least three times but it still crashes whenever I want to use them. Strange. Has anyone ever been able to get a readable crashlog?

[SD_Man]

So what fire tactics system shall I use:
1) JaM's system: all units and all ranks fire at will. This avoids many problems and errors caused by CA's bad AI and pathfinding programming.
2) Progression system: early Boshin units use Napoleonic tactics with tight formations while modernized/elite troops prefer looser formations and fire at will.

I would find it odd if levy troops were able to use professional Napoleonic (European) tactics, and it would give me an unfair advantage over the buggy AI. I prefer JaM's system: less problematic, more realistic as no unit has an unfair advantage over another, other than skill and training. Im pushing for 'kneel fire' because it would differentiate between poorly trained levies and disciplined elites.

Frodo just told me that it might be possible to overwrite original tables by adding my new tables to a separate pack file marked as "patch". If that works, then I can finally add a bunch of new tables dealing with abilities, buildings, effects and garrisons.

Tell us how it goes!

By the way, the game is constantly crashing whenever I try to play with the Goshin-pei cavalry or the Kiheitai. Did you notice that too? I've fixed all errors and checked the files at least three times but it still crashes whenever I want to use them. Strange. Has anyone ever been able to get a readable crashlog?

I thought it was just me! The only crash logs I can find are in ".fxc" format.

[BroskiDerpman]

Looking forward lads! I am going to put out a TROM3 update soon, but very much looking forward to this here.

Oh my, TROM3 really needs an update.

If I may request something from you please at least give the pike-gun combo Ashigaru the ability to use spearwall and buff up their stats to make them worth using over the older units. (They're not that good especially in justifying their cost and function)

Edit:

Kneel fire is a pain to use and can be quite buggy. Especially if you have kf enabled and order your men behind cover; they move there and are stuck inside. Keep it as simple as all ranks fire (Make formation tighter so not ever soldier fires as in that case there would almost be no point in thin lines unless if facing artillery), no special abilities.

Ranked fire just plainly sucks: it's unresponsive and the timings are too slow.

[SD_Man]

Kneel fire is a pain to use and can be quite buggy. Especially if you have kf enabled and order your men behind cover; they move there and are stuck inside. Keep it as simple as all ranks fire (Make formation tighter so not ever soldier fires as in that case there would almost be no point in thin lines unless if facing artillery), no special abilities.

Ranked fire just plainly sucks: it's unresponsive and the timings are too slow.

1. Thats a known bug, even CA admitted to the problem, but that doesnt make it game-breaking. At least you know when kf will break, unlike LIB where it justs breaks randomly. If special abilities can be adjusted so that the AI uses it as well, then they can be used.
2. Rank Fire: Yeah thats what I meant.