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Thread: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Do AI cavalry units try to avoid becoming trapped in close combat?
    Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on the BAI's mood.

    By the way, I'm uploading the combat beta right now. The thread will be updated when it's finished.
    Please test the custom battle mode and pay especially attention to the firearms, misfires and artillery.
    You can also play naval battles, but I still haven't found out the right morale values. Ships tend to flee quite fast, even after increasing morale by several points. Well, morale will be worked on after the firearms are finished.
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  2. #102

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Ive been following this project and am very exited

    I have some observations on the units, the biggest one is that sengoku yari were not used during the genpai war, the spear of the day was the hoko, which was mounted differently and hardly used by that time.

    the only other point is that I know the shinsengumi had armor and spears at the battle of the clam gate.

    keep up the good work

  3. #103

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    oh and I forgot that naginata were sometimes used from horseback, though not as often as yari since it was somewhat awkward

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius View Post
    I have some observations on the units, the biggest one is that sengoku yari were not used during the genpai war, the spear of the day was the hoko, which was mounted differently and hardly used by that time.
    I've read that the yumi was the favored weapon of the Genpei war. Nearly 80% of the casualties were caused by arrows.
    Now, which other weapons should units be equipped with? Hoko's don't exist ingame, so maybe the naginata? Or shall I use the yari, but rename it to hoko?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius View Post
    the only other point is that I know the shinsengumi had armor and spears at the battle of the clam gate.
    So I have to change their equipment. Well, maybe I can copy the shinsen-gumi. The armoured yari version fights on the battlefield while an unarmoured katana version serves as garrison. Strangely, the katana was quite popular during the Boshin and Satsuma Rebellion eras so I would like to keep some katana units around. Creating them as garrison units makes sense due to the limited space in towns and castles.

    Did anyone try out the combat beta?
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  5. #105

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Not strangely at all. Police and garrison units carried swords because they were lighter, easier to handle and quick to draw in case of civil strife. The British police carried swords during Victorian times for the same reasons.
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  6. #106

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    I've read that the yumi was the favored weapon of the Genpei war. Nearly 80% of the casualties were caused by arrows.
    Now, which other weapons should units be equipped with? Hoko's don't exist ingame, so maybe the naginata? Or shall I use the yari, but rename it to hoko?

    I would get rid of spears entirely, you could use yari, but the japanese did not start using massed spear formations untill around the onin war hundreds of years latter. before that the yari was hardly more than a tanto mounted on a shaft, and it generated increasingly few casualties compared to other polearms of the time. the hoko was probably originally used in a similar mannor, but by the genpai war the old court military system had broken down, and the bushi that picked up the slack preferred mounted archery and polearms like naginata and nagimaki. the game wont properly support mixed units, but loose groups of naginata and other weapons are close enough.

    you can keep multible shinsengumi troop types, I believe as time went on some of them used rifles, but its been awhile since I read up on it

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    What's with the spear discussion for RoTS? Isn't there already Naginata Levies and Attendants?

    The Armor worn by Shinsengumi would'nt be too much. It would just like Lv. 5 Shinsengumi Agent Model : Plated Headband. maybe Jingasa, and a Hotoke Do breastplate under the Sky Blue coat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    Did anyone try out the combat beta?
    A Place with unfindable download button...
    I wanted to comment for some units, but I'll reserve my judgement until I can try it myself.
    Last edited by weirdoascensor; February 05, 2014 at 05:18 AM.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    What's with the spear discussion for RoTS? Isn't there already Naginata Levies and Attendants?
    I'll probably stick to the naginata as primary polearm. However, bow units will be more numerous as it was the case during the Genpei war.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    The Armor worn by Shinsengumi would'nt be too much. It would just like Lv. 5 Shinsengumi Agent Model : Plated Headband. maybe Jingasa, and a Hotoke Do breastplate under the Sky Blue coat.
    I think the ninja breast armour should suffice. That's what all my police units are wearing as it is compatible with Boshin clothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    A Place with unfindable download button...
    Really? Do you use Adblock or NoScript?
    TW gave me a timeout when uploading and hugefiles + putlocker didn't wanted to upload the file for some reason. That's why I had to choose file1 (which also handles my fansubs).
    UPDATE: Hugefile is back! It's one of my favorite hosters as it offers decent speed to freeusers. I might upload an updated version.

    Quote Originally Posted by weirdoascensor View Post
    I wanted to comment for some units, but I'll reserve my judgement until I can try it myself.
    Be careful with the Imperial Hussars. They tend to crash the game although the database entries look good.
    Otherwise, there might still be some unfinished or falsely coloured uniforms left. The unit viewer where you can also colour the uniforms usually crashes, so I have to enter the RGB values into the tables. Guesswork.
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  9. #109

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Spears were not very popular during the Genpei war. At the time, Japanese armies fought inefficiently, using mainly bows. The Mongol invasions gave them a big kick as they discovered that their current tactics were inadequate, and afterwards tactics began to change. By the Sengoku Jidai, massed pikes were common.

    I've just realised how much Shogun 2 is missing by not including the Mongol invasion and the Imjin war. Those begging for diversity would finally be appeased...
    A message to CA:

    Either care about history or improve modding support.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Spears were not very popular during the Genpei war. At the time, Japanese armies fought inefficiently, using mainly bows. The Mongol invasions gave them a big kick as they discovered that their current tactics were inadequate, and afterwards tactics began to change. By the Sengoku Jidai, massed pikes were common.
    That's going to be reflected in the game. The genpei area of recruitment system will spit out more yumi troops while the Sengou part favors nagae yari troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    I've just realised how much Shogun 2 is missing by not including the Mongol invasion and the Imjin war. Those begging for diversity would finally be appeased...
    The ones craving for diversity should try my Boshin combat beta. They won't be disappointed with the new artillery pieces, the police troops, early and late line infantry etc.
    I've uploaded an updated version to hugefiles. Thlink can be found in the first post.
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  11. #111

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    That's going to be reflected in the game. The genpei area of recruitment system will spit out more yumi troops while the Sengou part favors nagae yari troops.


    The ones craving for diversity should try my Boshin combat beta. They won't be disappointed with the new artillery pieces, the police troops, early and late line infantry etc.
    I've uploaded an updated version to hugefiles. Thlink can be found in the first post.
    The "beggars for diversity" are those who try to justify units like "no-dachi samurai" by claiming that without them, there would be no diversity. Their complaints are usually far more targeted at the Sengoku period than the Boshin period.

    Ashigaru were also not recruited in huge numbers until the Sengoku Jidai. The Genpei War was fought with lower numbers and a much higher proportion of samurai.
    A message to CA:

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  12. #112

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    didn't the taira raise an army of 70,000? but of course most lords of that time had an army of maybe 100 or so.

    nodachi were an interesting weapon, but nagimaki would have been more likely by sengoku times than nodachi. I think the real deversity would be in early to late ashigaru types which changed greatly from the onin war to sekigahara, armed mobs to professional soldiers

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius View Post
    nodachi were an interesting weapon, but nagimaki would have been more likely by sengoku times than nodachi.
    Oda favored the nagamaki and outfitted some of his troops with this weapon. Therefore, I will add some regional nagamaki troops. As soon as you get your hand on one of Oda's provinces, you too will be able to hire them.
    Odachis were said to be rarely used on the battlefield due to being too big, but in Europe, Doppelsöldner with Flamberges charged bravely into pike formations. Why didn't the Japanese get this idea? A documentation I've recently seen claimed that the Japanese armour was weak against piercing attacks, so maybe that's the reason? After all, the Doppelsöldner could rely on proper steel armour to protect them from pikes and onehanded swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius View Post
    I think the real deversity would be in early to late ashigaru types which changed greatly from the onin war to sekigahara, armed mobs to professional soldiers
    Actually, my campaign will most likely start in 1570. At this time, teppos and properly trained ashigarus were common. Portraying the progression from early to late Sengoku with 12 turns per year and this mediocre engine wouldn't be very entertaining.
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  14. #114

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Japanese iron and steel was of very poor quality, hence the lack of decent armour and the need for complicated sword-smithing.

    2-handed swordsmen had steel armour which protected them from pikes, and usually attacked once 2 pike formations had already engaged. They usually fought in mixed formations with pikemen, moving through the pikes once engagement had begun. Charging into a pike wall would result in little progress, with the swordsmen being driven back, though few would be killed thanks to their armour. Again, the lack of mixed formations makes this hard to implement in-game.
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  15. #115

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    the nagimaki was developed from the Odachi. The odachi is not a great weapon for a period dominated by formations of spearman. Only relatively rich samurai could afford one, the warriors during the nambokucho period favored them because they were harder to break than polearms. warriors fought in loose mixed formations, where individual skill with a weapon really mattered. spears are cheap. by the end of the sengoku even naginata were rare, a nice naginata was still very expensive compared to a yari.

    the fact remains though, there are records of mass formations of yari, naginata, and even nagimaki, but Ive never heard of odachi used in such a manner.

  16. #116

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Nodachi had mostly disappeared by the Sengoku Jidai. 2-handed swordsmen only fought in pike battles in Europe.
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  17. #117
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Cool, I never played S2 realism. So I will wait for this version to be finished. Good luck Destin !
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  18. #118
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    New Units:
    - Katana Cavalry (The Shogunate's hussars are invented when you have researched modern cavalry. It's the Shogunate's reaction to the introduction of hussars. There will be no katana cavalry in Sengoku and Genpei.)
    - Tokugawa Police with revolver and sabre
    - Shogunate Pioneers with spencer rifles
    - Several police garrison units defending your towns. In contrast to the "battlefield" police, they prefer katanas for street combat.

    Better building roster:
    - Castle chain
    - Town chain
    - There is only 1 military chain: army camp -> barracks -> stable -> arsenal -> military academy (faction-unique)
    - Economy/Industry chain
    - Entertainment chain
    - Education chain: school -> oyatoi gaikokujin (faction-unique)
    - Propaganda chain (New: Shinchogumi HQ that can only be built in Edo)

    All buildings now require upkeep!
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  19. #119
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    can you update the link please? its not working.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    The link is indeed dead. In that case, I will soon upload a new beta with the latest changes.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

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