Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

If swordsmen are called "Katana Kachi" and spearmen "Yari Kachi", why are bowmen not "Yumi Kachi"? I would have opted for the English "pikeman", "longbow", "musketeer", but the names should be consistent.

Police and guard units carried swords because they were easy to wear in a scabbard and draw in the event of violence. A spear or musket is very unwieldy when not in battle. I doubt that these police and guards, mostly used to fighting criminals with lesser weapons (knives), would have been any use at all on the battlefield, unless they used surprise or the enemy were undisciplined in the art of the old cold steel.

[weirdoascensor]

I say, let basic Kachi recruitable from be Castles, from the start. Daimyo should be able to muster them from existing Samurai, without building Grand Dojo - only required for long unused fighting arts during the pax Tokugawa.

Police units should be moved into Propaganda Buildings, so they are more readily available. Most early Bakumatsu clashes are street fighting and police actions anyway. They should also have Garrison Policing Bonus, so they provide 2 repression point compared to other units 1 .

I also think that less-used Encampment Buildings should be added more bonuses.

And oh, give Republicans some special units more of skirmishing in nature - something like Mounted Raiders with Kisho deployment.

[Destin Faroda]

If swordsmen are called "Katana Kachi" and spearmen "Yari Kachi", why are bowmen not "Yumi Kachi"? I would have opted for the English "pikeman", "longbow", "musketeer", but the names should be consistent.

That's why I called them "Daikyu Kachi". They will use the Daikyu with a reach of 125m which makes them a viable force against tanegashima wielders.

A spear or musket is very unwieldy when not in battle. I doubt that these police and guards, mostly used to fighting criminals with lesser weapons (knives), would have been any use at all on the battlefield, unless they used surprise or the enemy were undisciplined in the art of the old cold steel.

Actually, the Shogunate was desperate enough to send police troops to the battlefield. The Shinsen-gumi and the Mimawari-gumi have fought on the battlefield. The latter ones used nagae yari on the battlefield though. It's so difficult to find information about the Boshin war. Maybe the Shinsen-gumi too used yaris and teppos or minies?

I say, let basic Kachi recruitable from be Castles, from the start.

That's what I had in mind for both Sengoku and Boshin. Samurai were already capable warriors and thanks to their holdings, they could provide for themselves. Therefore, you don't need to train or outfit them. Instead, you simply call them in. Shouldn't take long to do so. Maybe 1 or 2 rounds?

Police units should be moved into Propaganda Buildings, so they are more readily available. Most early Bakumatsu clashes are street fighting and police actions anyway. They should also have Garrison Policing Bonus, so they provide 2 repression point compared to other units 1 .

Already done. However, the Imperial and Republican police units are only recruitable when you have researched "modern rifles" as they use revolvers. Shogunate policemen use katanas. Maybe I could give them cheap armor like the one the Tokyo Police is wearing? That would increase their power in melees.

I also think that less-used Encampment Buildings should be added more bonuses.

Due to the limited number of building slots, encampments will be removed. Instead, the military buildings will be slightly upgraded.
Idea so far: Encampment -> Training Field -> Arsenal -> Kobusho (as faction-unique building?)
- Encampment is a prerequisite for the lowest infantry.
- A training field allows proper training of infantry and cavalry (+1 EXP).
- Arsenal lets you build artillery.
- Kobusho is for guard units and skirmishers (skirmishing was a good "school" for young officers).

And oh, give Republicans some special units more of skirmishing in nature - something like Mounted Raiders with Kisho deployment.

Current Republican roster: Republican infantry, guard infantry, skirmishers, combat engineers, ulans, hussars, guard cavalry (cuirassiers).
Besides, I am trying to add a Republican agent to the game. He will be a copy of the Ishin Shishin agent.

The combat beta will soon be ready. All the new units are working, but I still have to check their colours. Some are a bit too bright. Besides, I am still not happy with the weapon accuracy and the morale. Modern firearms kill ~50 men per salvo yet the enemy only starts running when they have lost more than 3/4 of their troops. That's a bit too suicidal in my oppinion.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Units usually shatter if they lose half their men. If obviously outgunned, they should flee even sooner, especially if the enemy charges. It usually only took 1 volley and a charge to rout the French in the Peninsula.

Police units should carry spears into battle, unless the battle is a street skirmish. A pike is not difficult to make or supply. If their spears break, they should draw their swords...wait, CA didn't implement weapon breaking. Never mind.

[weirdoascensor]

Units usually shatter if they lose half their men. If obviously outgunned, they should flee even sooner

That should be able to dealt with by tweaking kv_morale together with kv_rules...

[Destin Faroda]

I am using DaVinci's morale values and despite heavy penalties for units that have lost more than half their men, they still march into heavy gunfire and only break after 4/5 men have died. I even improved the fear factor of projectiles from -2 to -3. The levies I killed had a morale value of 5. Looks like the morale system needs some further adjustments.

Moreover, I reduced the lethality of guns by 5% and introduced misfire chance to the game. Percussion misfire chance is 1% and arquebuse misfire chance is 10%. The traditional policemen now use nagae yari on the battlefield with katanas as backup weapons.

However, there is also bad news: all the weapon stats need to be remade from scratch. Due to the fact that "melee attack" actually represents hit chance, several alterations need to be made. The current stats were created with damage in mind.
If you have knowledge about Japanese warfare and weapons, please leave your suggestions in this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...d-armour-stats

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

The lethality of pikes should be fairly low, especially against armoured foes. They were not always very sharp, and often knocked over a foe instead of piercing him. Swords, however, are much more lethal, especially against unarmoured foes. Even when both combatants were armoured, sword fights were usually over quite quickly. Yet another reason why swords were not primary weapons - there was a much higher risk of death from sword fighting than pike fighting. If pikes start breaking and men move in with swords, casualties should rapidly increase.

Bows should do severe damage to unarmoured foes, but to armoured foes the damage should mostly be to fatigue and morale. The chance of an arrow hitting an unarmoured part was fairly small, and arrows could not pierce plate. The French knights at Agincourt were battered and bruised by showers of arrows before being slaughtered in close combat. The arrows themselves did not massacre them.

[Destin Faroda]

Here are the new stats: https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...-and-Modifiers
Do they look right?

Pikes are now quite weak against infantry, but can still handle cavalry.
Charge attacks with polearms are now quite dangerous.
Swords are now good basic weapons and can handle pikes and have 1 more defense than yaris and bayonets. The latter are better against cavalry though.
Arrows cause 0,99 and bullets 1,5 damage. These values work quite well.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Pikes were not stronger against cavalry in actual combat! Unless the pikeman planted his pike in the ground, the impact of a charging horse would just knock it out of his hands. I have already said that "bonus against cavalry" is mostly bull$hit. A hedge of pikes had a huge psychological effect on horses, scaring them back, but in disordered close combat a pike was much less effective against a horse than a sword was. Pikes were not weak against infantry - they could halt a charge or drive the enemy back. They were merely less lethal than swords. Bayonets are very similar. These are formation weapons, very good at keeping the enemy back both physically and psychologically. Unfortunately, the game engine does not handle formation fighting very well at all. In the sort of messy melees which abound in Shogun 2 at present, spears would not be very useful against swords, since formations barely exist at all. Swordsmen usually defeat spearmen in single combat, but in formations the reverse is true. The game is simply incapable of even approaching the tactics of formation, crush, flanking and even morale.

Making horses go berserk and bolt if mutilated, or collapse on men and kill them, is, I suppose, also impossible.

[Destin Faroda]

Pikes were not stronger against cavalry in actual combat! Unless the pikeman planted his pike in the ground, the impact of a charging horse would just knock it out of his hands. I have already said that "bonus against cavalry" is mostly bull$hit. A hedge of pikes had a huge psychological effect on horses, scaring them back, but in disordered close combat a pike was much less effective against a horse than a sword was.

The psychological effect can be simulated with "scares horses". It - sometimes - encourages the AI to attack polearm units from the flanks or the rear.

The game is simply incapable of even approaching the tactics of formation, crush, flanking and even morale.

Well, attacks from the flank and rear decrease a units morale (and perhaps even fighting capability). The morale system is quite sophisticated as it reflects higher ground, secured flanks, projectile fire, nearby generals, casualties in general and during a certain time, chance of victory etc.

The main problem are the weapon stats. Warscape games are just lacking when it comes to melee damage, dismounted defense, different stats for primary and secondary weapons etc. Creating weapon stats under these circumstances is difficult.
Therefore, I will postpone the new unit stats. Instead, the first beta will allow you to experience the new units and their deadly guns. Fear the casualties.
Afterwards, a new morale system will be implemented that should convince troops to flee when they have lost 60% of their manpower.

Update:
The enemies have finally taken retreat into consideration! After having received some deadly snider-enfield salvos, they decided to run away. New casualties: ~20 deaths per 200-man-salvo. Not bad. Besides, fatigue influences walking speed, melee capabilities and accuracy. So, let your men rest from time to time.
What do you think about the idea to implement early and late line infantry? Early line infantry uses minie rifles and is numerous while late line infantry is limited, but comes equipped with snider-enfields.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

How much do formations of spearmen matter? Can the phalanx be made the main combat formation, as it was for peasant pikemen? Samurai, especially in the early period, wielded shorter spears. Can the pike square be used at all?

Can men be knocked over by pikes, but not killed, as they often were?

[Destin Faroda]

How much do formations of spearmen matter?

Sadly, not much.
Loose formation decreases casualties from ranges weapons. However, unit attacking a loose formation receive a melee attack bonus.
Pike wall is a unit ability that can be given to troops. Once activated, the men tighten the formation. Somehow, this improves their frontal stopping power, but makes them vulnerable from the flanks and the rear. Probably hardcoded. The only variable I could find is "pike wall move speed". It decreases movement speed when pike wall is active by 40-50%.

Can the phalanx be made the main combat formation, as it was for peasant pikemen?

As far as I know, it is not possible. However, while looking through the files, I just discovered a column formation ability. This needs to be tested.

Samurai, especially in the early period, wielded shorter spears. Can the pike square be used at all?

The game knows three different types of spears: yari, long yari and extralong yari. Units with yari don't receive the pike abilities. The other ones do.

Can men be knocked over by pikes, but not killed, as they often were?

That is not possible. The only workaround I can imagine is giving pike units a high defense stat. This way, they will be difficult to kill thus simulating the reach bonus of pikes. By giving them low melee attack, they won't slaughter the enemy. In combination with some armour, the pikemen will be able to distract enemies for quite some time.

[weirdoascensor]

Early-Late Line Infantry Distinction? What are they for? Isn't there already Levy(Early, Musket)>Line(Mid, Rifle)>Imp\Sho\Rep(Late, Breechload) Progression?

About Pikes:
Spear Wall actually almost nullifies Charge Bonus. And length really matters: I've seen whittled to dozen Samurai Retainers try to attack my Long Yari Ashigaru I've successfully put inside the main courtyard. They cannot even touch any of the pikemen...they just run into the pikes just to get poked and pushed back over and over again, not triggering kill animation. I just let them be until I got bored and ordered my men to push forward...

Almost all Infantry can be given Spearwall ability: I even once assign them to Bayoneted Riflemen....However, bear in mind that Length matters, Swords reach Short Yari much easier in-game than pikes.

The formation can be broken by sheer momentum to scatter the pike reach though, by repeatedly ordering unit to just push through into the back. In MP its called Dragging.

AI would use Spearwall in defense, but always break it if attacking or got lured to move out of position.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Sadly, not much.
Loose formation decreases casualties from ranges weapons. However, unit attacking a loose formation receive a melee attack bonus.
Pike wall is a unit ability that can be given to troops. Once activated, the men tighten the formation. Somehow, this improves their frontal stopping power, but makes them vulnerable from the flanks and the rear. Probably hardcoded. The only variable I could find is "pike wall move speed". It decreases movement speed when pike wall is active by 40-50%.


As far as I know, it is not possible. However, while looking through the files, I just discovered a column formation ability. This needs to be tested.


The game knows three different types of spears: yari, long yari and extralong yari. Units with yari don't receive the pike abilities. The other ones do.


That is not possible. The only workaround I can imagine is giving pike units a high defense stat. This way, they will be difficult to kill thus simulating the reach bonus of pikes. By giving them low melee attack, they won't slaughter the enemy. In combination with some armour, the pikemen will be able to distract enemies for quite some time.

Pikemen should always fight in phalanx, if possible. Do individual soldiers draw swords and attempt to move through a melee between 2 pike blocks? Pike fights usually progressed like this:

1. 2 pike formations engage. If one side has shorter pikes, many of them will be knocked over or wounded and their attack will stall.
2. The pike formations fight at the length of the pike, with low casualties, unless both sides have pikes of equal length and are charging, in which case they may end face to face in a "push of pike".
3. Some pikes break, and some soldiers try to push through with swords. If a "push of pike" happens, both sides slaughter each other with swords and knives until one side prevails. Casualties are extreme. The "push of pike" was very rare.
4. If there is no "push of pike", one side eventually begins to waver. The winners launch a final push and rout their foes. If the defenders do not flee, a "push of pike" may begin, but this was very unusual.
5. One side will likely be routed by cavalry or flanking attacks.

Stainless Steel tried and failed to simulate pike combat (pikemen had no sidearms), so you are forgiven if you cannot simulate it either. It's really the fault of the game engine.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Hey back again

Q. Will you be making a realistic representation of Sengoku Jidhai warfare and will you get rid of the one on one? It didn't work like that way at all in Japan at that the time and please bring banners in the game.

Here's a few mods which i think you should take a look at and videos:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ed-Otomo-Sorin
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ailable!-Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErZs-i_yKlQ

The Youtube is a link to the Heaven and Earth Japanese Movie, though its in french, but really do have a look at how feudal japanese society was and also do look at the battle scenes, I'd certainly love of one those large mon tents, where the Japanese Generals are stationed surrounded by Banners and generals and mons, that would make the battles look even more authentic at the start of the battle and please double the role of cavarly and spearmen in this.

Here's another good depiction of sengoku jidhai warfare or somehwat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NalFKrkylc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un8c1UV1QBI

Will you also be adding ladders?

Movies like Ran or Kagoshima? Their battle scenes?

Here are also good links I've found.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGZn6CXxNSY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZuZJDFGGfg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEzqc...B87ED787191861

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd-p8...B87ED787191861

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMynm3NH30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQczO-YzMZ8

https://www.google.com/search?q=Samu...h=955#imgdii=_

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbbfDntoRRk

Well that's my list and I know its not much but I would like proper sengoku Jidhai battles to be fought. With huge armies and Mons at the beginning of the battles. And also do more research on Japanese feudal society as it could be more interesting, I'm no expert but I'd love to see a mod like this appear soon. If combined with Uniame's great japan expanded mod, it would work greatly.

[proxyasian]

Something else to consider in differentiating the early and late ranged infantry is the reliability of their guns. The kv_rules table has a section with misfire chances for matchlocks, flintlocks, and percussion caps. I suspect it dates back to empire, as all of the default values are zero. It would be entertaining to see the guns occasionally fail in the midst of battle.

[Destin Faroda]

Q. Will you be making a realistic representation of Sengoku Jidhai warfare and will you get rid of the one on one? It didn't work like that way at all in Japan at that the time and please bring banners in the game.

I am a modder, not a magician. You will never get a proper representation of Sengoku Jidai warfare with the Warscape engine. It can't handle mixed formations (samurai on horseback surrounded by their attendants on foot) and battles are one on one.

Here's a few mods which i think you should take a look at and videos:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ed-Otomo-Sorin
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ailable!-Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErZs-i_yKlQ

I know these mods and would like to add them. However, due to the fact that I will change the starting date to ~1570, there will be many new clans and some of the older ones might not exist anymore.

The Youtube is a link to the Heaven and Earth Japanese Movie, though its in french, but really do have a look at how feudal japanese society was and also do look at the battle scenes, I'd certainly love of one those large mon tents, where the Japanese Generals are stationed surrounded by Banners and generals and mons, that would make the battles look even more authentic at the start of the battle and please double the role of cavarly and spearmen in this.

There used to be a mod where the general sat on a chair, surrounded by cloth walls. Hopefully, I'll find it again.
The role of cavalry will be reduced to flanking. After all, head on charges against pikes and spears are quite unhealthy and the polearms scare the horses. Besides, there will only be 2 types of cavalry. Daikyu/katana cavalry and yari cavalry. I might add a limited amount of mounted teppos if they really existed. Otherwise, the great guard is reserved for the shogun and the akazonae can only be hired in Takedas domain.

Will you also be adding ladders?

As far as I know, this game doesn't support ladders. Climbing will be made more difficult and Frodo is working in better siege maps. Exhausted troops now receive melee and accuracy penalties.

It would be entertaining to see the guns occasionally fail in the midst of battle.

Misfire has been added several days ago. Now the salvos are less deadly, but still good enough to rout up to 3 troops simultaneously.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Most samurai cavalry preferred to fight with longbows, not as shock lancers. The infantry who surrounded and guarded them will sadly have to be absent thanks to the Warscape engine. The general's tent would be a good addition, though.

Can cavalry with longer lances destroy a pike square? This happened during the 30 Years' War, where Polish husarski with 6-metre lances often broke pike squares with shorter pikes unless the square had cavalry support.

[Destin Faroda]

Most samurai cavalry preferred to fight with longbows, not as shock lancers.

That is true for Genpei and Sengoku. During late Sengoku however, yari cavalry started to become popular.

Can cavalry with longer lances destroy a pike square? This happened during the 30 Years' War, where Polish husarski with 6-metre lances often broke pike squares with shorter pikes unless the square had cavalry support.

I don't know if that is possible. However, I have never heard that such tactics were used in Japan.

Update: JaM has allowed me to use his excellent morale system from Empire Realism.
Besides, formations are now much more orderly and the movement speeds have been further adjusted.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Shock cavalry should be rare at the start of the campaign, and more common towards the end.

Do AI cavalry units try to avoid becoming trapped in close combat?