Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

[Destin Faroda]

Before going on with the mod, I have to think about the tech tree, especially the military part. There are several technologies I have to take into consideration when creating new units.
These are: Arms Deal, Imported Guns, Modern Rifles, Revolver, Carbine, Modern Army, Kneel Fire and Suppression Fire.

My ideas so far:
- In the beginning, you can only recruit outdated Sengoku units.
- Arms Deal -> activates minie line infantry for Tokugawa and sonno joi. Tokugawa vassals will get them a bit later.
- Imported Guns -> activates modern artillery.
- Modern Rifles -> slightly decreases costs of firearm units. Tokugawa vassals get basic minie line infantry.
- Revolvers -> maybe I should rename it to "Western Cavalry"? It will then activate hussars, ulans and Republican cuirassiers.
- Carbines -> could be renamed to "Firearm Cavalry". Activates revolver and carbine cavalry (although they're rather useless due to their rather short-ranged weapons).
- Modern Army -> activates all other modern units besides skirmishers. Tokugawa gets Denshutai, Sendai gets Gakuheitai, Aizu gets its 4 unique units.
- Kneel Fire -> removed. Maybe it should activate the skirmishers with chassepot rifles?
- Suppression Fire -> removed. It could unlock the combat engineers.

Any suggestions or comments?

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

What abilities do combat engineers have? Laying mines and digging trenches would be difficult to implement, and laying pontoons would be impossible, though it would make for much more interesting river crossing battles.

[Destin Faroda]

What abilities do combat engineers have?

Bamboo wall, chevaux de frise, earthworks, improved fougasse, gabionade, light infantry behaviour, pavisse deployable, wooden stakes

In custom battle mode, only the wooden stakes work.
In the campaign, your army has to be entrenched to use abilities like bamboo wall. When the general's avatar is surrounded by wooden stakes on the world map and you are attacked, you can use these abilities.

On the battlefield, the engineers are can be used as skirmishers.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Sappers were not always, or even usually, light infantry. In World War 1 some engineers even took to wearing armour, especially on the German side.

Can chevaux de frise and other anti-cavalry defences be made non-lethal to horses walking past them? Horses will naturally avoid such hazards unless they are running too fast to change direction, and after once losing most of a cavalry unit walking past them in Napoleon I feel quite sore about it.

[Plan C]

Before going on with the mod, I have to think about the tech tree, especially the military part. There are several technologies I have to take into consideration when creating new units.
These are: Arms Deal, Imported Guns, Modern Rifles, Revolver, Carbine, Modern Army, Kneel Fire and Suppression Fire.

My ideas so far:
- In the beginning, you can only recruit outdated Sengoku units.
- Arms Deal -> activates minie line infantry for Tokugawa and sonno joi. Tokugawa vassals will get them a bit later.
- Imported Guns -> activates modern artillery.
- Modern Rifles -> slightly decreases costs of firearm units. Tokugawa vassals get basic minie line infantry.
- Revolvers -> maybe I should rename it to "Western Cavalry"? It will then activate hussars, ulans and Republican cuirassiers.
- Carbines -> could be renamed to "Firearm Cavalry". Activates revolver and carbine cavalry (although they're rather useless due to their rather short-ranged weapons).
- Modern Army -> activates all other modern units besides skirmishers. Tokugawa gets Denshutai, Sendai gets Gakuheitai, Aizu gets its 4 unique units.
- Kneel Fire -> removed. Maybe it should activate the skirmishers with chassepot rifles?
- Suppression Fire -> removed. It could unlock the combat engineers.

Any suggestions or comments?

Overall a fantastic idea.

Having said that, kneel fire is a very entertaining and effective fire drill - why remove?

[Destin Faroda]

Sappers were not always, or even usually, light infantry. In World War 1 some engineers even took to wearing armour, especially on the German side.

Before changing the combat engineers, I first have to test them during a campaign play. Until recently, I didn't even know that these defensive structures even existed. I missed them in Empire due to my aggressive playstyle. My Prussian troops didn't need traps to crush the enemy.

Having said that, kneel fire is a very entertaining and effective fire drill - why remove?

1. It is unrealistic. Also, it is ridiculous that only 2/3 of the men participate in combat. I thought about swapping it with ranked fire which is a bit more historical, but that too is problematic as the following point will show.
2. The BAI can't use it. This will give the player an unfair advantage.
3. Removing that special ability lets you concentrate on the grand strategy and maneuvering which is going to be more important due to the longer weapon ranges.

[Plan C]

Fair enough, makes sense. Point 3 especially makes me all giddy

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

I would recommend removing abilities that the AI cannot use. The player really doesn't need any more advantages, even on Legendary.

Fire by rank was standard drill for European troops. If this can be their default method of firing, that would equalise things for the player and the AI. Why would the second and third ranks not fire while the first was reloading?

[weirdoascensor]

Hm? I've seen BAI uses Rank Fire quite frequently.

Now, about the unit not reloading until the whole three ranks finished shooting problem, you may add reload speed bonus when using FbR to simulate the First and Second ranks immediately start reloading after shooting...Its in kv_rules, methinks.

The "Normal" fire_volley used by all gunnery units in the game, actually depends on individual Line of Sight, after CA patches in the Line of Sight behavior into ranged unit to reduce Friendly Fire.
This means, individuals not in the first rank can shoot, provided its line of sight is unimpeded. If you observe FoTS firefights closely, the men in second rank occasionally shoot.

As a matter in fact, I just played an battle several hours ago. An AI Levy Infantry, in a slope of a higher hill, fires using about 4-5(!) ranks at my Line Infantry in a lower hill; because almost all men of their unit have clear LoS at mine.

[Destin Faroda]

Indeed, weirdoascensor, you're right. Today, for the first time in TW history, I have seen the BAI using ranked fire. From now on, all line infantry units will be able to utilize this ability.

Besides, the ships now have realistic speeds (in knots) and the navy has received new uniforms inspired by the pictures from the book "Japanese Military Uniforms". Too bad the normal uniform parts are lacking several important pieces, but there is nothing I can do against it. Let's see if the turning/rotation speed needs some updates as well. And let's not forget the naval artillery...

The Shogunate forces now have two troop types:
- Shogunate troops: these troops can only be recruited by the Shogunate's vassals. Their quality is slightly below that of the Tokugawa and sonno joi troops. Modern units like the Gakuheitai are an exception though.
- Tokugawa troops: these are the Shogun's men. The Denshutai (gained when modern army is unlocked) are equal to the sonno joi units, but limited (as in reality).

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Have you done anything with unit sizes? Current units are approximately 1 company.

[Destin Faroda]

Have you done anything with unit sizes? Current units are approximately 1 company.

Line infantry = 200 men
Light infantry = 100 men
Cavalry = 80 men
Artillery, Shinobi (will wear levy infantry disguise), general = 40 men

Those numbers have worked well in Empire Realism which uses a 3:1 scale. On the other hand, I use a 1:1 scale. Increasing the numbers would be nice, but I doubt middle-class graphics cards can handle it. Besides, I fear that there will be pathfinding/space issues with giant formations.
Well, let's just try it out to see what happens. On the other hand, you can always increase the unit size multiplier entry in the player_scripts file. That way, people with average computers won't have problems and the ones with super computers can simply increase the 1 to 3 to get 600 men per line infantry unit.

[Plan C]

Line infantry = 200 men
Light infantry = 100 men
Cavalry = 80 men
Artillery, Shinobi (will wear levy infantry disguise), general = 40 men

Those numbers have worked well in Empire Realism which uses a 3:1 scale. On the other hand, I use a 1:1 scale. Increasing the numbers would be nice, but I doubt middle-class graphics cards can handle it. Besides, I fear that there will be pathfinding/space issues with giant formations.
Well, let's just try it out to see what happens. On the other hand, you can always increase the unit size multiplier entry in the player_scripts file. That way, people with average computers won't have problems and the ones with super computers can simply increase the 1 to 3 to get 600 men per line infantry unit.

I've mostly played FoTS with Radious' (and Sakanade's) mods which stick to roughly those numbers. 200 for a unit of regular infantry is the sweet spot, I reckon.

What about traditional troops? Are you planning to keep 200 for kachi units as well?

[Destin Faroda]

Good point. While modern infantry usually consisted of samurai and ordinary men alike, traditional kachi troops look like samurai-only units. As members of the warrior caste were limited, their numbers would have to be reduced to Shogun-2-level. Maybe 80 or 100? Thanks to their armour, they will still be effective in melee, but not very good at marching into modern bullets.
At least samurai don't require training and high upkeep. After all, that's the whole reason a warrior caste exists in the first place.

The levy infantry and spearmen will stay at 200 as they can be seen as ashigaru. After researching arms deal, minie line infantry with bayonets will supersede these two traditional units.

Now I'll continue with colouring the new units - hoping that the unit editor doesn't crash too often. If everything works out well, I might through out a beta version in the near future to let you test the new units and battles.

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

Traditional units will be hopelessly slaughtered unless their opponents are levies armed only with muskets who will flee when charged. In the early game, a shock charge by samurai could rout the enemy, but once rifles and well-trained units appear, close combat troops will be totally obsolete. I suggest 100 men for these units.

[Plan C]

Good point. While modern infantry usually consisted of samurai and ordinary men alike, traditional kachi troops look like samurai-only units. As members of the warrior caste were limited, their numbers would have to be reduced to Shogun-2-level. Maybe 80 or 100? Thanks to their armour, they will still be effective in melee, but not very good at marching into modern bullets.
At least samurai don't require training and high upkeep. After all, that's the whole reason a warrior caste exists in the first place.

The levy infantry and spearmen will stay at 200 as they can be seen as ashigaru. After researching arms deal, minie line infantry with bayonets will supersede these two traditional units.

Now I'll continue with colouring the new units - hoping that the unit editor doesn't crash too often. If everything works out well, I might through out a beta version in the near future to let you test the new units and battles.

Yes! Thanks dude, I'll happily help test the beta.

Traditional units will be hopelessly slaughtered unless their opponents are levies armed only with muskets who will flee when charged. In the early game, a shock charge by samurai could rout the enemy, but once rifles and well-trained units appear, close combat troops will be totally obsolete. I suggest 100 men for these units.

Aye, this is what Sakanade's mod did really well, as a trad clan you can more than stand up to early opponents; once they have late musket units you end up scanning the battlefield for all terrain irregularities where you can hide from the bullet storm. Charging even a 200-strong katana kachi unit head on into imperial infantry with kneel fire = sad face.

But I think that having trad units at 100 strength, but really fierce in close-combat would make them viable, even as ambush units in late game. What you could do, Destin, is buff up melee stats of some late units (shogunate / imperial inf) to represent their elite training.

The only trad unit with higher numbers, I suggest, could be matchlock kachi. I mean, by 1800s, most samurai would own a teppo anyway, and they were smart guys, most would go into battle with one, so I imagine that the majority of samurai on the battlefield (in this wildly theoretical scenario) would be teppo-armed. Leading on from this - how about you even delete katana samurai completely from unit_table and just give matchlock kachi katana's melee stats? Then you could keep them at 100? A bit random, but could work, maybe?

This way, they could be truly versatile battlefield units (a bit like samurai in RoTS), in small numbers and need to be supported by levy troops?

[Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov]

"Katana samurai" are mostly fictional anyway. The primary weapon was the spear, bow or musket, with the sword as the reserve weapon. The samurai could use the British tactic of the Peninsular War: fire one volley, then charge.

I expect that implementing weapon breaking is impossible, but this would help to represent "push of pike" better.

[Plan C]

"Katana samurai" are mostly fictional anyway. The primary weapon was the spear, bow or musket, with the sword as the reserve weapon. The samurai could use the British tactic of the Peninsular War: fire one volley, then charge.

I expect that implementing weapon breaking is impossible, but this would help to represent "push of pike" better.

Very much so, katana kachi is a CA invention to help balance gameplay, and only that. That is why I reckon matchlock kachi and yari kachi would be enough to fill out the ranks of traditional armies, especially with support from levy troops (both pike and musket levies). This would give a better idea of samurai as a versatile warrior as they truly were.

Same could go for bow kachi (i.e. they would function as melee troops mainly but with added bonus of being able to skirmish). Maybe bow kachi could be given close to hero stats but reduced to 40 - 50 men per unit and maybe capped; kyudo was dead as a martial art by then anyway. No one would take a yumi into battle over a teppo, unless they were supremely confident in their skill and had a point to prove which suits the concept behind hero units. In fact, they could just function the same way as RoTS samurai - elite fighting unit in close combat with superb accuracy, and reload but small in number.

Let me know if I'm rambling, sorry to throw this in so late in your development process, Destin...

[Destin Faroda]

Let me know if I'm rambling, sorry to throw this in so late in your development process, Destin...

No problem, I'm always happy about good input.
Besides, the mod is still far from being finished. Right now, I am concentrating on the battlefield mechanics (morale, projectiles, stats etc.) and units. Afterwards, I will finally start work on the campaign part of the game.

Very much so, katana kachi is a CA invention to help balance gameplay, and only that.

Really? What about the Shogitai, the Battoutaim the Kogekitai and the Shinsengumi? Apparently, they prefered to use katanas.
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/ima.../Shogitai2.jpg
Do you know more about these? So far, I was only able to find out that the mimawarigumi police switched to nagae yaris when they had to fight on the battlefield.
The Kogekitai did have some hunting firearms, but prefered ambushes + melee attacks. I've somewhere read that the Shinsengumi did have some men armed with firearms, but the katana was the standard weapon.

[Plan C]

Hmmm... fair enough, some specialised (police, guard) units did use swords as their primary weapon, good shout there. I'm still in the mindset of Sengoku and sort of projected this idea onto Boshin units (i.e. katana being a sidearm). I wonder if Shinsengumi attitude would have spilled over to the way samurai fought, as in if samurai would feasibly go into battle with nothing but katana. Or, perhaps, units like the Battoutai and the Shogitai could afford to stick to katana because they were supported by other troop types (although the Shogitai stood alone at Ueno).

Either way, defo looks like you know about Boshin-era warfare a lot more than I do so I will happily trust your judgement on this one