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Thread: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    The battoutai would be effective against reluctant, badly-equipped conscripts, and also in ambushes, though ambush and other asymmetrical warfare is badly represented in-game.
    Let's not forget that the BAI can't handle ambushes by sniping units. Sniping units stay hidden while firing and the supid BAI simply ignores it. Not good, CA!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    European equivalents can be matched to Japanese weapons. The yari is a pike, the katana a one-handed sword, the naginata a glaive, the nodachi a longsword and the yumi a longbow. By "glaive" I mean the real mediaeval polearm, not the oversized spiky chakram that is called a "glaive" in some fantasy fiction. Call it an "oversized spiky chakram" instead, if you must use it at all. (You may have realised by now that I am not the greatest fan of fantasy fiction.)
    Yari = Spear
    Nagae Yari = Pike
    Yumi -> Hankyu = Shortbow, Daikyu = Longbow

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    If it is possible to make formation have a big effect on the outcome of close combat, please try to make it that way. Men standing in an organised line will fare far better than men fighting individually, especially if armed with spears.
    It is possible to specify how tight the men stand together, but I don't know if this has an impact on fighting efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Spears should be much more effective in formation, but if the formation is broken, then swords become massively more effective, so a broken pike unit will be slaughtered unless they also draw swords or supporting units arrive. I doubt that the concept of "reach" exists in-game, but if it does, then it would be a good way to implement this (spears have longer reach, but if swordsmen get inside them then they are defenseless).
    In Shogun 2, yari are simple 1vs1 weapons, but CA got nagae yaris right. A pike wall is deadly. The front is nearly impenetrable and pikes do have a reach bonus. This allows them to stop charging infantry and cavalry. My tercos pikemen have slaughtered quite some units without sustaining any casualties, but the BAI was also very passive.
    Still, for Boshin Realism, pike warfare is quite irrelevant as they are shot to death before they can encounter melee combat. Maybe a tight formation does have some effects ingame, as bullets would be more likely to hit the target. Too bad there isn't a shooting range in the game to test projectile stats.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    The nagae yari generally replaced the short yari during the Sengoku Jidai, especially for ashigaru. If 2 pike blocks fight, the block with longer pikes usually wins.

    Another feature which would be excellent to add is the reluctance of units, especially cavalry, to charge a pike wall. Horses usually refuse to charge into static pikes, causing chaos as they break formation and scatter. The sight of advancing pikemen should also scare infantry, especially if they have weapons with shorter reach.

    A pike would only stop a charging horse if it was planted into the ground like a stake. If pikemen were charged while moving, they would likely be shattered like any other infantry; "bonus against cavalry" does not apply when the formation is sundered. Therefore the weakness of these formations is their relatively slow speed and vulnerability to gunnery, especially artillery. Archers could also have some impact, especially since ashigaru were lightly armoured and did not carry shields. All infantry should have a "bonus against cavalry" of sorts, since cavalry are massively disadvantaged in prolonged melee; it is easy to mutilate an unarmoured horse, either killing it or sending it berserk so that it throws off its rider and bolts. Most damage should be done in the initial charge, and if the foe has not broken they must withdraw and charge again.

    Another request is to just slow everything down a bit. Muskets seem to fire too fast, units move too fast, casualties are inflicted too fast and units rout too fast. Most deaths on a battlefield were during the rout, not the battle. Men staying in formation would reduce kill rates a bit. "Tactical withdrawals" would also be good to see; rather than always fighting until every unit is routed or dead, armies attempt to retreat if they know that defeat is certain (there were many inconclusive battles during the Sengoku Jidai).

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Another request is to just slow everything down a bit. Muskets seem to fire too fast, units move too fast, casualties are inflicted too fast and units rout too fast. Most deaths on a battlefield were during the rout, not the battle. Men staying in formation would reduce kill rates a bit. "Tactical withdrawals" would also be good to see; rather than always fighting until every unit is routed or dead, armies attempt to retreat if they know that defeat is certain (there were many inconclusive battles during the Sengoku Jidai).
    That has already been taken care of. Units walk "normally", reloading times are realistic (tanegashima 2-4 shots/minute; spencer repeating rifle 14-18 shots/m) and casualties are decreased. Sometimes, units run away and come back after a while, but these withdrawals are not planned by the BAI. Players can do that though.
    Morale has been drastically increased for samurais, sohei and ronin. As followers of bushido, they rather die than run. Of course, some are smart enough to withdraw, but most will certainly prefer a noble death.
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  4. #24
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    The nagae yari generally replaced the short yari during the Sengoku Jidai, especially for ashigaru. If 2 pike blocks fight, the block with longer pikes usually wins.
    I am thinking about moving the starting date to 1570 - a time where ashigaru were drilled and tanegashimas were quite common. So at that time, normal yaris were not used by ashigaru anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Another feature which would be excellent to add is the reluctance of units, especially cavalry, to charge a pike wall. Horses usually refuse to charge into static pikes, causing chaos as they break formation and scatter. The sight of advancing pikemen should also scare infantry, especially if they have weapons with shorter reach.
    Polearm units have the scare horse ability. Infantry is not impressed by pikewalls though. Maybe that fear effect can be activated? It did work in Empire where grenadiers frightened other infantry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    A pike would only stop a charging horse if it was planted into the ground like a stake. If pikemen were charged while moving, they would likely be shattered like any other infantry; "bonus against cavalry" does not apply when the formation is sundered. Therefore the weakness of these formations is their relatively slow speed and vulnerability to gunnery, especially artillery. Archers could also have some impact, especially since ashigaru were lightly armoured and did not carry shields. All infantry should have a "bonus against cavalry" of sorts, since cavalry are massively disadvantaged in prolonged melee; it is easy to mutilate an unarmoured horse, either killing it or sending it berserk so that it throws off its rider and bolts. Most damage should be done in the initial charge, and if the foe has not broken they must withdraw and charge again.
    The game doesn't support immobile pikemen like in Medieval 2. At least the pike wall formation tightens the formations and decreases movment speed. This makes them a good target for ranged weapons.
    Bonus against cavalry can't be temporarily deactivated.
    Horses are now very fragile due to their lack of armour and cavalry is best used as flanking force. Ulans have a deadly charge attack and hussars are good for flanking, but both suffer high casualties when attacking spearmen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Another request is to just slow everything down a bit. Muskets seem to fire too fast, units move too fast, casualties are inflicted too fast and units rout too fast. Most deaths on a battlefield were during the rout, not the battle. Men staying in formation would reduce kill rates a bit. "Tactical withdrawals" would also be good to see; rather than always fighting until every unit is routed or dead, armies attempt to retreat if they know that defeat is certain (there were many inconclusive battles during the Sengoku Jidai).
    Units now walk normally, weapons have realistic ranges and reloading times, casualties are lower and units rout not as fast as before. Followers of bushido usually prefer death over shame, but all other units can and usually do retreat when their morale is low. Some flee from the battlefield while others can return to battle. Tactical withdrawal is not something the BAI can handle, but at least in multiplayer custom battles, players can do it.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    I'm glad to see you attempting to implement proper castle designs. In the base game, assaulting a fort is often actually easier than defending it. Also please try to remove the magical gate-burning grenade thingies that all units carry - I'm quite confident that they were not standard equipment for ashigaru, and even if they were, why can they only burn gates, not people? Destroying gates should be reserved for siege engines and units opening them from the inside (a possible application of battlefield ninja).

    2 pike blocks fighting in formation should have very low casualties. Only when swordsmen or naginata wielders move through the pikes and start to break the formations does the real killing begin. I understand that implementing "push of pike" and "bad war" is likely impossible, but it would be good if pike and shot warfare could be represented accurately once. The game engine will likely not cope with it, though.

    What I meant by "tactical withdrawal" was this. A unit of pikes is outflanked and will be surrounded unless it withdraws at once. Instead of letting itself be encircled and slaughtered, it performs a fighting retreat (walking backwards, not turning and fleeing) since it knows that if it routs, it will be massacred by enemy cavalry. Once it is a safe distance away, the men turn and run. The enemy general may leave a "folorn hope" to be killed while the rest retreat. Obviously this is far beyond the AI, so it cannot be implemented.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    I'm glad to see you attempting to implement proper castle designs. In the base game, assaulting a fort is often actually easier than defending it.
    I intend to use the castles from the better maps mod.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    Also please try to remove the magical gate-burning grenade thingies that all units carry - I'm quite confident that they were not standard equipment for ashigaru, and even if they were, why can they only burn gates, not people? Destroying gates should be reserved for siege engines and units opening them from the inside (a possible application of battlefield ninja).
    I guess that might even work. Without torches, the BAI would be forced to use siege equipment or - more likely - it would simply send its units to climb the walls. Climbing leads to casualties and tired units, making things easier for the defenders. In combination with better castle design, sieges might become enjoyable for the defender. Right now, it's a mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    2 pike blocks fighting in formation should have very low casualties. Only when swordsmen or naginata wielders move through the pikes and start to break the formations does the real killing begin. I understand that implementing "push of pike" and "bad war" is likely impossible, but it would be good if pike and shot warfare could be represented accurately once. The game engine will likely not cope with it, though.
    Right now, pike walls are quite effective and casualties are minimal. I need to test them further though (with and without secondary weapon) to see how the gameplay changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandr Vasilyevich Suvorov View Post
    What I meant by "tactical withdrawal" was this. A unit of pikes is outflanked and will be surrounded unless it withdraws at once. Instead of letting itself be encircled and slaughtered, it performs a fighting retreat (walking backwards, not turning and fleeing) since it knows that if it routs, it will be massacred by enemy cavalry. Once it is a safe distance away, the men turn and run. The enemy general may leave a "folorn hope" to be killed while the rest retreat. Obviously this is far beyond the AI, so it cannot be implemented.
    Unfortunately, walking backwards is not possible in TW games. In Empire, a retreating units left some soldiers behind to stop the attackers, but that was rather ineffective. You can't stop a hussar charge with a handful of suicidal defenders.

    Somtimes I wish a modding group would create a proper realisitc war engine, but that would be a daunting task.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    It would indeed be a daunting task.

    I think that a lot of the problems with Total War in general are that CA have to produce games quickly, so there is little time to finish the game before release. The best thing for them to do would be to implement strong support for mods, because the base game will always be rubbish. Even Rome, widely considered to be the best, featured a litany of preposterous units (entire units of Celts throwing heads, Roman ninja, Egyptians given a TARDIS trip 1000 years into the future) and fictional countries, and required the mighty Europa Barbarorum to fix it. Rome Total Realism was also excellent for people with slower computers.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    That has already been taken care of. Units walk "normally", reloading times are realistic (tanegashima 2-4 shots/minute; spencer repeating rifle 14-18 shots/m) and casualties are decreased. Sometimes, units run away and come back after a while, but these withdrawals are not planned by the BAI. Players can do that though.
    Morale has been drastically increased for samurais, sohei and ronin. As followers of bushido, they rather die than run. Of course, some are smart enough to withdraw, but most will certainly prefer a noble death.
    ugh, samurais (i.e. what you call the followers of bushido) were rarely (if ever) as "valiant" and "noble" and "honourable" as fiction would have you believe. they had a sense of honour, yes, but in battle they weren't stupid and they retreated like everybody else (kinda like the idea(l) of the medieval knight in europe). from what i remember, that modern, romanticized, "gentlemanly" "code of honour" that you see so often depicted was formalized during the tokugawa shogunate, before it was just general guidelines. so please, stop with this "awesome super honourable ubersamurai" that would die before retreating BS, because that's as "realistic" as the pyjama wearing battlefield ninjas. sure there were honourable samurais that fought to the death, but they were not common. that "samurai (and sohei) having 3 times the morale of ashigarus" is bollocks
    "Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives. Let my death hold no glory, and let me die forgotten and unknown. Let it not be said that I was one among the dead to accuse the living."

  9. #29

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by raest View Post
    ugh, samurais (i.e. what you call the followers of bushido) were rarely (if ever) as "valiant" and "noble" and "honourable" as fiction would have you believe. they had a sense of honour, yes, but in battle they weren't stupid and they retreated like everybody else (kinda like the idea(l) of the medieval knight in europe). from what i remember, that modern, romanticized, "gentlemanly" "code of honour" that you see so often depicted was formalized during the tokugawa shogunate, before it was just general guidelines. so please, stop with this "awesome super honourable ubersamurai" that would die before retreating BS, because that's as "realistic" as the pyjama wearing battlefield ninjas. sure there were honourable samurais that fought to the death, but they were not common. that "samurai (and sohei) having 3 times the morale of ashigarus" is bollocks
    I agree. If the battle is obviously lost, the samurai should withdraw with the rest of the army. Fighting to the death would only really happen when retreat was cut off, or as a "folorn hope".

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by raest View Post
    ugh, samurais (i.e. what you call the followers of bushido) were rarely (if ever) as "valiant" and "noble" and "honourable" as fiction would have you believe. they had a sense of honour, yes, but in battle they weren't stupid and they retreated like everybody else (kinda like the idea(l) of the medieval knight in europe). from what i remember, that modern, romanticized, "gentlemanly" "code of honour" that you see so often depicted was formalized during the tokugawa shogunate, before it was just general guidelines. so please, stop with this "awesome super honourable ubersamurai" that would die before retreating BS, because that's as "realistic" as the pyjama wearing battlefield ninjas. sure there were honourable samurais that fought to the death, but they were not common. that "samurai (and sohei) having 3 times the morale of ashigarus" is bollocks
    In my Boshin Realism test version, the shinsengumi do run when they have taken heavy casualties. They just don't run after 5 seconds. Right now, their morale value is 20, but this is not final. A lot of testing will be needed to finetune all the new values and units.

    Does anyone actually use the Obama? In my oppinion, they are absolutely useless and lack unique units, so I intend to transform them into a minor clan. The empty slot will then be filled with the most important faction CA has forgotten: the Tokugawa Shogunate. Tokugawa Iemochi will rule his vast holdings from a well-fortified Edo. The French trading district will allow players to invite the French military mission resulting in the recruitment of the modern Denshutai ulans, hussars and infantry. Besides, their uniforms and colours were fixed to be historically accurate. Primary source: "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929"
    Besides, the Tokugawa rebels will be renamed to Republic of Jezo rebels. Too bad the game lacks historical events like in Paradox games...
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    In my Boshin Realism test version, the shinsengumi do run when they have taken heavy casualties. They just don't run after 5 seconds. Right now, their morale value is 20, but this is not final. A lot of testing will be needed to finetune all the new values and units.

    Does anyone actually use the Obama? In my oppinion, they are absolutely useless and lack unique units, so I intend to transform them into a minor clan. The empty slot will then be filled with the most important faction CA has forgotten: the Tokugawa Shogunate. Tokugawa Iemochi will rule his vast holdings from a well-fortified Edo. The French trading district will allow players to invite the French military mission resulting in the recruitment of the modern Denshutai ulans, hussars and infantry. Besides, their uniforms and colours were fixed to be historically accurate. Primary source: "Japanese Military Uniforms 1841-1929"
    Besides, the Tokugawa rebels will be renamed to Republic of Jezo rebels. Too bad the game lacks historical events like in Paradox games...
    No unit should run after 5 seconds unless it is charged by cavalry or faced with overwhelming force where retreat is possible. Units unable to run should fight to the death, if this is possible (I know that this mechanic existed in Medieval 2, forcing generals to leave a gap for their foes to run before pursuing and slaughtering them all).

  12. #32

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Really glad to hear someone is working on a mod wich trys to be historical and realistic, i really hate the samurai full stacks you have in the vanilla game(only an example of many thinks^^).
    I'm looking forward to the first tests.

    Maybe you could teamup with some other modders to make your work more effective?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    about the low kill rate for pikes.

    Perhaps you could give the pikemen high defense values but low attack so when two pike blocks engage the killing would be pretty slow but when non pike units engage frontally the pikes have an easier time picking them off.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by PumkinKing
    Maybe you could teamup with some other modders to make your work more effective?
    I too wouldn't mind getting some helping hands to speed up things. At the moment, I would even be happy with knowledge about the Boshin war, especially firearm accuracy statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman
    Perhaps you could give the pikemen high defense values but low attack so when two pike blocks engage the killing would be pretty slow but when non pike units engage frontally the pikes have an easier time picking them off.
    Nagae Yari: 3 Melee attack | 4 Charge attack | 4 Anti-Cavalry | 2 Defense
    Extralong Yari: 2 Melee attack | 4 Charge attack | 4 Anti-Cavalry | 1 Defense
    Melee attack probably means hit chance and defense is nothing more than parrying/evasion. Due to the long pikes, pikemen have a reach bonus and the game recognizes that. Therefore, the low defense seems to work.
    When I move on to the Sengoku period, I will have plenty of time to toy around with pikes. Right now, accuracy values of modern firearms at effective killing range is what concerns me most.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Bolt-action, breech-loading weapons like the Dreyse "needle gun" and the Chassepot existed by the FOTS period, as did Minié balls. These weapons made line infantry obsolete, and your mod should show why. Muskets should be very inaccurate and have much shorter range, making them almost useless against modern rifles in open battle.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    It's testing time: http://www.putlocker.com/file/A409C884D9EEB35D
    Please tell me what you think about the new units and especially the weapons stats. Only use the custom battle mode as campaign play is not ready yet.
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  17. #37

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Suggestion: Make the Oda allied with the Tokugawa. There's a mod that makes the Tokugawa Oda's vassal here, but I'd rather have them allied.

    Also, if you can do this, please release it as a standalone feature separately.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Hey man thanks for crediting me, it's been a while since I've given input on this mod but it's nice to see my small contribution acknowledged

  19. #39

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Hey there, good luck on the developing this mod! Always looking for new mods in Shogun. I just started playing a bit of S2R+, actually, after the 3.0 update. I'm curious, Destin, will you be retaining the short ranges on ranged units? So far, the short ranges are the one element of S2R+ that I'm not really enjoying. I love how slow the battles are, the low kill-rate, and how units route reasonably... just, my archers feel pretty weak, especially when their arrows only go a little farther than my bomb-throwers (60 to 50 range).

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Ranged units will use realistic effective killing ranges.
    Examples:
    Hankyu = 30m (Unfortunately, the BAI is too stupid to handle very low ranges, so I might have to increase it to 50)
    Daikyu = 125m
    Tanegashima = 80m
    Modern rifles = ~500-550m
    Chassepot rifle = 600m (Actually 1200m, but French Infantry used 600 as effective killing range during the Franco-Prussian war. Besides, the battlefields are too small for full range chassepots.)
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