Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

[Marcus Tullius]

ok, here are a few things I noticed when playing. the first is battlefield ninja are still availible, the second is that an ashigaru pike unit, in a castle, failed to beat a samurai spear unit that had just climbed one or two walls. you just cant beat a spear wall head on like that. the ashigaru hit them in formation head on, they either withdraw or rout

[Destin Faroda]

ok, here are a few things I noticed when playing. the first is battlefield ninja are still availible,

I don't know if I should completely remove them or if lowering their numbers might be okay. A handful of sneaky guys trying to open the gate for the attacker sounds like a smart move. However, isn't that the job of the ninja agent?

the second is that an ashigaru pike unit, in a castle, failed to beat a samurai spear unit that had just climbed one or two walls.

Unfortunately, there is not much I can do about that. Thanks to the Warscape engine, formation-based warfare was removed. Instead, units now fight 1vs1 duels. Under these conditions, a pike wall can't work. They've started to add some kind of simulated formation warfare to Rome II, but this is way inferior to the 10-year-old system from Medieval 2.
At least nagae yari ashigaru can easily slaughter elite cavalry from the front. In my current version, I've given them a shield value of 10, but I don't know if the game actually recognizes the shield field. Shield increses melee defense against frontal attacks, so it would be perfect for pikemen.
Do you remember how exhausted the Samurai were after having climbed two walls?

Newest version is up. Again, please test the "Fall of the Samurai" campaign and tell me if it crashes or not. The only thing I did was deactivating several building chains by adding the religion requirement "rel_animist". As this religion doesn't exist, these buildings are removed from the game. It did work before, but now even such a simple alteration leads to a crash when clicking on my home town. If others experience these crashes at well, there might be a problem with my mod. If it works though, I'll probably have to reinstall my game.

[jo the greek]

at last a game that add realismi in FTS all my support guyis i can help also in reseach with videos and resource o that era timeframe

[Destin Faroda]

at last a game that add realismi in FTS all my support guyis i can help also in reseach with videos and resource o that era timeframe

If you are familiar with the Boshin period, please play my mod and tell me if you notice anything weird or unhistorical. Besides, IlluminatiRex is now helping me to improve the unit descriptions. These will contain some historical facts, so you could help us.

[SD_Man]

Are there any specific instructions for the campaign test? I don't want to spend 2 hrs clicking on everything until it crashes.

[Destin Faroda]

1. Follow the installation instructions in the opening post. Deleting the files in AppData can solve a lot of problems like missing units, UI errors etc.
2. Choose Choshu and try to play two or three rounds.
3. Report your results.

[Marcus Tullius]

thats the thing, ninja are agents, assassins. they were not soldiers, they didn't fight in formations (invisible formations on top of that!) just scratch them entirely, they are one of the least historic units in the entire game and that is saying alot.

[Destin Faroda]

thats the thing, ninja are agents, assassins. they were not soldiers, they didn't fight in formations (invisible formations on top of that!) just scratch them entirely, they are one of the least historic units in the entire game and that is saying alot.

What about a ninja unit which:
- consists of 10 to 20 men
- looks like ashigaru (disguise)
- behaves like light infantry (can hide in grass, scrubs and forests + moves unseen + guerilla deployment BUT without invisibility)
- fights with hankyu and katana
- can climb fast
- is limited to 1 per ninja province building

This way, ninja provinces would keep a certain strategic value. And what should I do with the Hattori?

[Fujiwara]

And what should I do with the Hattori?

For the sake of God(), convert them to Iga Sokoku Ikki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenshō_Iga_War

Despite its purely speculative from my part, I would suggest the kanji "Iga" as "faction symbol", both for UI buttons, strapmap banner and battle banners
Try to limit the sashimos on their troops(just like you plan for your sohei). As there is no specific sources about any Iga sashimono(or its such confidential that none heard about it, and there is no reason to display the Hattori kamon since they're only one of Iga families).

Actual "Hattori-Ninja-BS-WTF" is historical like Rome 1 total war's battle dobermanns...Ah...C.A... I was almost killed the day I discovered the Hattori D.L.C, I assume they watched Kill Bill, and said between them: "Hattori Hanzo??? wahh, our stupid customers will die for such a DLC with moar ninjas, moar cool/fun/awesome stuff".
That the story of C.A's Hattori DLC.

[Destin Faroda]

My Sengoku campaign will start in 1570. During that time, Iga was apparently ruled by the minor Niki clan.
Maybe I should just replace the Hattori with the Niki. Afterwards, I could turn the Niki into a non-playable faction. The free faction slot could be given to a more important clan like the Sanada or Amako. Problem solved.

[Marcus Tullius]

I would go with what fujiwara recommends, maybe give their ninja agents a bonus. history is rarely as romantic as the old tales make it to be.

[Fujiwara]

@Destin Faroda, just quoting something:
"Ninja - 1000 years of the shadow warriors"

"Iga's Ikki was a province-sized confederation of villages under the control of 66 warrior families[...] Despite the lack of information[...]a constitution was written around 1560.

Basic duties of members are similar to daymio's decrees requierements...:all guys from 17 to 50 years must fight, possibility to become samurai for those who distinguished in battle, traitors will be beheaded...etc...

"[...]he concluded(Ishida Yoshihito) that is was written(the Iga's constitution) in the 16-year period between 1552 and 1568[...]."

Further its explained that Miyoshi were de facto the overlords of Iga("powerfull enough to rate a mention").

Also its specified that the Iga Ikki was born to protect peoples both from Central Authority, "hungry churchmen" and "bandits". So probably "Hattori Bandits" units could be replaced, converted or just disappear.

[Destin Faroda]

So the "Iga Sokoku Ikki" would replace the Hattori and the unit roster would stay the same (generic ashigaru and samurai units). That shouldn't be a problem.
The ninja province buildings could decrease ninja recruitment and action costs. Sounds good.

[Fujiwara]

So the "Iga Sokoku Ikki" would replace the Hattori and the unit roster would stay the same (generic ashigaru and samurai units).

Thats the idea, two serious mods(Sengoku Jidai-1560 and True Samurai) perfomed that conversion.

The "Hattori" Samurai can be renamed either Ji-Samurai or Kokujin. Since thats such low-ranking bushi who ruled the province, and from where came the 66 ruling families.

Not sure for Hanzo if he was really a ruler of Iga, yet in the 1540's his father was in Matsudaira service, and another Hattori was mentionned as Ikko local leader in Owari province in the 1550's, that latter one meet Oda Nobunaga for a question of territory.

[La Tene]

I am trying to understand why my unit recruitment is at 100 men per unit. I've chosen Ultra unit size and the existing units on the campaign map are at 200, any help?

[La Tene]

I'm in the custom battle setup now and I see that unit numbers are drastically changed all across the board, so, I understand now. For my campaign, just accept the initial unit numbers discrepancy?

[Destin Faroda]

I am trying to understand why my unit recruitment is at 100 men per unit. I've chosen Ultra unit size and the existing units on the campaign map are at 200, any help?

Which campaign? So far, only the Boshin campaign is partially supported. Problems with numbers result from the fact that I haven't generated a new start_pos file. Before I can do that, I have to add new buildings, technologies etc.
Are you able to play the Boshin campaign without crashes?

[La Tene]

Which campaign? So far, only the Boshin campaign is partially supported. Problems with numbers result from the fact that I haven't generated a new start_pos file. Before I can do that, I have to add new buildings, technologies etc.
Are you able to play the Boshin campaign without crashes?

Hi, yes, I've just finished losing a campaign due to not being familiar with the recruitment duration.. 4 turns?

No crashes, battles were great aside from having the mixed up unit numbers but I've dealt with it before (darth mod)

I've worked with the Rome 2 starpos altering unit sizes in start game garrisons. Perhaps I can help out?

ps: 4 turn recruitment might be good, I can't tell yet... have you experimented with these campaigns much?

pps: upkeep being so high means I had a real hard time developing my settlement (tosa), but it can be done.

[Marcus Tullius]

from what I read the ikko ikki had alot of jisamurai as well

[Destin Faroda]

[QUOTE=sneakythief;13862664]Hi, yes, I've just finished losing a campaign due to not being familiar with the recruitment duration.. 4 turns? [\quote]
Actually, average units require 6 turns = 3 months. Accordign to Wikipedia, this is the time required for basic military training. The AI does have the same recruitment time. Your best bet is the immediate research of arms deal. Then you build a barracks which allows you to recruit modern infantry. Modern soldiers can easily kick traditional butts.
When I add the new building effects, you'll be able to train more units at the same time. With a castle and the military academy, you can train 5 units at the same time.

[QUOTE=sneakythief;13862664]No crashes, battles were great aside from having the mixed up unit numbers but I've dealt with it before (darth mod)[\quote]
If the Boshin campaign works without crashes, I'll add some new building chains and effects to see if that works. So it looks like my game is defect or maybe it's the OS?

I've worked with the Rome 2 starpos altering unit sizes in start game garrisons. Perhaps I can help out?

The problem is: the game doesn't want to generate a new Boshin campaign start_pos file. It works for the Sengoku and Genpei campaign though.

ps: 4 turn recruitment might be good, I can't tell yet... have you experimented with these campaigns much?

Boshin Samurai = 1 turn
Boshin Ashigaru = 4 turns
Sengoku Ashigaru, Average Infantry, Guards = 6 turns
Cavalry + light infantry = 8 turns

pps: upkeep being so high means I had a real hard time developing my settlement (tosa), but it can be done.

The economy is still not finished. I strive for high recruitment costs, but low upkeep (In the Sengoku jidai period, 1 ashigaru received 1 koku rice per year). Besides, building chains will require upkeep too (Maintenance, garrison upkeep etc.).

from what I read the ikko ikki had alot of jisamurai as well

So, should I add new jisamurai units for the Ikko-shu and the Iga Sokoku Ikki? Were they as good as normal samurai? What about equipment?
Besides, I'll finally add the Gesakunin and Sakunin to the game. The Gesakunin will fight with pikes while the Sakunin prefer teppos. They will have slightly better equipment than normal ashigarus. Both are capped to 1 per province.