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Thread: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

  1. #181
    Artifex
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    During the last weeks, I have heavily modified the projectiles and the unit stats (and I fixed lots of errors). The following observations were made:
    - The Imperial Guard Cavalry was beaten back by nagae yari ashigaru. It was a frontal charge into a forest of pikes. Not a wise decision, but now pike formations can win against elite cavalry. I also increased the density to 20. Maybe that too helped.
    - Lethality of modern firearms was greatly reduced. A full teppo salvo at maximum range kills approximately 6 people. That sounds appropriate. However, the closer the enemy comes, the higher the casualties will be.
    - Tired men fight and aim worse. The fatigue system is still not perfect, but it's improving. Too bad the AI doesn't care about having fresh troops.
    - Sharpshooter units only consist of 50 fragile men, but they can be quite deadly when left alone. Counter them with light cavalry which have the highest spotting radius.
    - The sharpshooter projectile, the gatling bullets and the spencer repeater got the suppression fire trait. They slow enemies down by 33%.
    - Despite greatly raising the defense values, melees are still rather short. However, now the problem seems to lie in the morale system. Hopefully, increasing the morale by 1 or 2 points will fix the problem.
    - I've noticed that artillery is way too accurate for my taste. Does anyone know how often they actually hit?
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  2. #182

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    - I've noticed that artillery is way too accurate for my taste. Does anyone know how often they actually hit?
    Not based on what I could find:
    ...was a dead shot at any distance under a mile. They could hit the end of a flour barrel more often than miss, unless the gunner got rattled."
    At 1600 yards [1500 m] the Whitworth gun fired 10 shots with a lateral deviation of only 5 inches
    Theres are, however, other considerations. The following is estimated or extrapolated from information about Gettysburg.
    The ratio of guns per men: a conservative estimate of Gettysburg puts the ration at about 1 gun per 150 men. But, one must take into account that the south was short on resources in this area, the Union having as much as 50% high ratio of guns to men. One could argue that a well equipped army would run at closer to 1 gun per 100 to 125 men.
    Ammo: The amount of ammo in TW is much more limited, reports are that artillery at Gettysburg had a minimum of 550 rounds per gun.
    Casualties: Based on what I read, I don't recall where, a unit is considered combat ineffective after taking only 1/3 losses, much less than the 95% of vanilla.

    Conclusion: I believe the accuracy of the guns are not too far off, though if it bothers you overly much you can think of another 2-4 ghost guns sitting next to yours firing and missing. I believe that is how CA came to these stats, the Union had up to 6 guns per battery. If you simply assume a flat 66% accuracy you can just remove the 2 guns that always miss and leave the 4 that always hit, improving performance. One could argue that the cannons should have far more ammo, but that would be counter productive unless you can make the AI actually use cannons effectively, or at all.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Rifles, especially the chassepot, should be absolute murder in FotS. Using volley fire, the Chassepot was deadly out to over a kilometer (although human error meant that trying to hit individual targets at that range was futile.) At the typical engagement ranges of FotS, troops armed with Chassepots (or any rifles, for that matter,) should be knocking out masses of men with each volley.
    The above post is in a pre-alpha state and does not nessecarily reflect the final writings of the poster. As such the poster cannot be held responsible for any statements made in this post.

  4. #184
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Quote Originally Posted by silentdeth View Post
    Conclusion: I believe the accuracy of the guns are not too far off, though if it bothers you overly much you can think of another 2-4 ghost guns sitting next to yours firing and missing. I believe that is how CA came to these stats, the Union had up to 6 guns per battery. If you simply assume a flat 66% accuracy you can just remove the 2 guns that always miss and leave the 4 that always hit, improving performance. One could argue that the cannons should have far more ammo, but that would be counter productive unless you can make the AI actually use cannons effectively, or at all.
    I've tinkered around with the cannons and now they do miss more often. Not bad, I presume.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentdeth View Post
    Rifles, especially the chassepot, should be absolute murder in FotS. Using volley fire, the Chassepot was deadly out to over a kilometer (although human error meant that trying to hit individual targets at that range was futile.) At the typical engagement ranges of FotS, troops armed with Chassepots (or any rifles, for that matter,) should be knocking out masses of men with each volley.
    Chassepots are very deadly, but they are reserved to infanterie de marine and the ryohei (skirmishers). After all, the weapon was brand new at that time, rare and expensive.

    Update:
    - The new unit stats I came up with (again) are simply amazing. Now melees last much longer than in any other mod, units can fulfill their correct roles and all of this was achieved without setting the unit hitpoints to 2 or more.
    - My new fatigue system has been slightly improved, but it's still not good enough. Ranged infantry still doesn't get tired from shooting and reloading, but I'll soon be able to find the correct values.
    - The morale system was improved and now units always flee when they have lost 50% of their men. Besides, cavalry quickly loses against nagae yari ashigaru, but when attacking from the rear, the ashigaru wil usually run away.
    Besides, the Genpei and Sengoku campaigns got their first improvements. My new unit stats make Sengoku and Genpei warfare finally enjoyable. I've also added Tercos Pikemen to the game (with Bullgod's beautiful reskin, of course).

    Regarding the Genpei war: what castes and troop types did exist at that time? As far as I know, the Kondei reforms got rid of the T'ang conscription system and instead focused on a small, elite army.
    Do the following units make sense: https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...r-%5BGenpei%5D
    - Saburai are elite palace guards
    - Onna Bugeisha are the saburai's women
    - Buke are sword nobles, the primary Kondei troops
    - Sohei are warrior monks
    - Shimobe can be compared to the ashigaru (Shimobe served as underlings for officials and the police)
    - Wako are pirates
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  5. #185

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    I do not believe gun powder had reached japan at that time, I would get rid of the hoko entirely, there were probably some guys still using late period hoko, but they would have been so rare as to be unimportant, with the abolishment of the conscription system, massed spear use disappeared, making the hoko inferior to weapons like the naginata. a more likely weapon for wako was the kumade, a steel claw on the end of a spear shaft used in navel engagements and to pull riders from their horses

  6. #186
    Civis
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    is this compatible with fots?

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    This primarily is a FotS mod, although some of the tables (fatigue, morale, rules) also alter Sengoku and Genpei gameplay. Therefore, it is only advised to use my mod in custom battle mode. The Boshin campaign is still not fully playable as I have to mod building effects, unit costs, the economy, crime and the garrisons (which always leads to crashes).

    Note that the released beta version is heavily outdated. I'll upload the current build (with greatly improved battle and projectile mechanics) when I get rid of the final errors.
    - For some strange reason, the Otomo Firearm units have vanished from custom battle mode (although they used to be there) and the new Tercos Pikemen are gone as well.
    - The Batto-tai are a special unit for Aizu, but other can use them as well. Of course, I've only activated them for Aizu, but this game is known for its serious issues. Sometimes, deleting the user files in AppData\Roaming\The Creative Assembly\ helps, but in this case, it doesn't work.
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  8. #188

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    I hope your still planning to get to the genpai and sengoku eventually, Im looking forward to both

  9. #189
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Deleted post.
    Last edited by The Wandering Storyteller; April 23, 2014 at 10:22 AM.





















































  10. #190
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Combat beta released]

    Beta version 14.04.25 is out. Have fun.
    This version has a new unit stats system which guarantees lower casualties (maybe a bit too low?) and reworked projectile stats (higher spread and lower accuracy than before). It still needs some tweaking but it does show potential.
    As usual, stick to custom battle mode. Campaign game will most likely crash. Besides, naval battles are still weird. Despite increasing morale and ship hitpoints, the enemy quickly routs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Tullius View Post
    I hope your still planning to get to the genpai and sengoku eventually, Im looking forward to both
    You can already use the Genpei and Sengoku units in custom battle mode. I even added Naginata and Katana Ashigaru to all factions. Let's not forget the new Namban Pikemen.
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  11. #191

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    Is the Extended map Unami5's extended map?

  12. #192

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    I started playing with the beta, sengoku still has alot of ahistorical units like the sword ashigaru you mentioned, and battlefield ninja. I still haven't gotten a feel for the moral yet,

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmar Heldenhamer View Post
    Is the Extended map Unami5's extended map?
    That was the original plan. Thing have changed though. Weierstrass and me are cooperating to expand the FotS map (which is bigger than the vanilla map). The problem with expanded map is the fact that the map is cramped with tiny provinces. Using the bigger FotS map and backporting it to Shogun and Genpei should solve this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmar Heldenhamer View Post
    I started playing with the beta, sengoku still has alot of ahistorical units like the sword ashigaru you mentioned, and battlefield ninja. I still haven't gotten a feel for the moral yet,
    Ashigaru were equipped with tabagatana (mass-produced katanas sold in bundles). Yesterday, I have removed most of the unrealistic units (odachi, nuns, katana samurai, katana cavalry etc.) from custom battle mode.
    The morale system was made by JaM and his team. It is used in Empire and Napoleon Realism. Usually, when a unit loses 50% of its manpower, the troops will rout. Thanks to the high defense stats, casualties are low so you can actually intervene.

    Bugs I've noticed so far:
    - The naginata ashigaru have no variant models. Now it's fixed.
    - The second standard bearer floats in the air. Thanks to Primergy, he now functions as intended.
    - I'm still unhappy with the projectiles. Therefore, I've created a huge, flat custom battle map dedicated to projectiles test. It is more than three times as big as vanilla battle maps. Not even Armstrong guns with 3100 range can reach the other end of the map. Makes me wonder why CA only made tiny maps. Well, marching to the enemy now does take some time, but the possibilities such a huge map offers... fill it with hills, forests, rivers, villages and you can really maneuver to your heart's content.
    Too bad I suck at creating siege maps. I'd really like to build a realistic castle, but the game never recognizes my siege maps. Besides, I was told the AI wouldn't be able to handle it.
    My Mod:
    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  14. #194

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    so this is a FOTS mod in its main purpose?

  15. #195
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    Right now, this mod concentrates on offering a realistic Boshin experience. In the future, all three campaigns will be supported.
    The current beta version allows you to play custom battle mode with Boshin, Genpei and Sengoku troops. The Boshin unit roster was greatly increased (joushitai, shinchogumi, hussars, ulans, skirmishers, pioneers, police troops etc.). At the same time, several unrealistic Genpei and Sengoku troops were deactivated (odachi, katana and naginata samurai, katana cavalry, heroes, female units etc.).
    As a one-man-team and thanks to a lack of documentation, progress is quite slow. However, I'm doing my best to finish this mod and the new battle, fatigue and morale values guarantee longer melees and Napoleonic firefights.
    The next step consists of allowing you to play the Boshin campaign and to improve the economy.

    Update: new version is out.
    - Naginata ashigaru now look like ashigaru
    - Second standard bearer almost works without flaws (when he's walking, his hand lose contact with the banner stick, but I don't know how to fix it)
    - I replaced JaM's naval morale system with DaVinci's. Now naval battles work again. However, the ships seem to be invincible. I wasn't able to sink a bloody hankyu kobaya with my kanon bune. Strange.
    - Traditional ships are now slower (by 2 knots), accelerate slower (-50%) and rotate slower (-1).
    Well, now I can move on and tweak the naval projectiles. They seem to be way more inaccurate then their land battle counterparts. Maybe the movement of the ship makes targeting more difficult?
    Last edited by Destin Faroda; April 27, 2014 at 05:26 PM.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  16. #196
    SD_Man's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    The morale system was made by JaM and his team. It is used in Empire and Napoleon Realism. Usually, when a unit loses 50% of its manpower, the troops will rout. Thanks to the high defense stats, casualties are low so you can actually intervene.
    Hopefully this can lead to more stretched "multi-day" battles rather than the full-scale "total war" we have now. Maybe shattered units can be given higher running speeds so that it would no longer be as easy to annihilate a routing army?

    And what about fatigue?

    Maybe routing, exhausted units (both shattered and not) can take the most casualties while steady, active units take practically none. This would mean that fatigue is the most essential factor, and even an enemy surrounded on all sides, or charged from the rear (depending on the mass of the charging units), would not be enough to win. This I learned the hard way with the brutal combat of Roma Surrectum 2.

    Besides, I was told the AI wouldn't be able to handle it.
    The siege maps or the bigger maps? I would really look forward to having 3x bigger maps, if not just 1.5x since projectile ranges are put to scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    As a one-man-team and thanks to a lack of documentation, progress is quite slow. However, I'm doing my best to finish this mod and the new battle, fatigue and morale values guarantee longer melees and Napoleonic firefights.
    The next step consists of allowing you to play the Boshin campaign and to improve the economy.
    Perhaps you can ask other modders to borrow/modify their campaign files? e.g. Radious seems to have done a superb job, as I've heard.
    This just a suggestion to lower the workload.
    Last edited by SD_Man; April 27, 2014 at 06:06 PM.

  17. #197
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.25 released]

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    Maybe shattered units can be given higher running speeds so that it would no longer be as easy to annihilate a routing army?
    I don't think this is possible and cavalry is way faster than running infantry.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    And what about fatigue?
    Fatigue values were inspired by Empire Realism, but I've made some small changes. After all, my melee battles take much more time, so the fatigue gain for melee had to be lowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    Maybe routing, exhausted units (both shattered and not) can take the most casualties while steady, active units take practically none. This would mean that fatigue is the most essential factor, and even an enemy surrounded on all sides, or charged from the rear (depending on the mass of the charging units), would not be enough to win. This I learned the hard way with the brutal combat of Roma Surrectum 2.
    Fatigue is important as exhausted troops receive heavy melee and accuracy penalties. Otherwise, there's not much than can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    The siege maps or the bigger maps? I would really look forward to having 3x bigger maps, if not just 1.5x since projectile ranges are put to scale.
    I'm curious to see if the AI and my middle-class computer can handle a huge, detailed map. Even if the AI is too stupid, the map could still be used for MP battles between human players.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD_Man View Post
    Perhaps you can ask other modders to borrow/modify their campaign files? e.g. Radious seems to have done a superb job, as I've heard.
    This just a suggestion to lower the workload.
    Actually, most of the campaign additions are already finished. There are new buildings, useless ones were removed, a republican agent and dynamic unit caps are already implemented etc.
    Last edited by Destin Faroda; April 28, 2014 at 04:41 AM.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  18. #198
    Yerevan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.28 released]

    Two details that could be changed in FOTS vanilla : the boat spam ( but it seems like you already want to change it ) and the speed by railroad. In vanilla it takes longer to carry artillery than inf through railroad when in reality I see no reason and everything should travel the same speed when using railroad. Thats one of the pros of railroad way.

    Do you intend to change anything to diplomacy and the allegiance system ?

    Good luck with this mod, FOTS is almost perfect I'm curious to see what you'll do with it ;-)
    Last edited by Yerevan; April 28, 2014 at 05:42 PM.
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  19. #199
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.28 released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    Two details that could be changed in FOTS vanilla : the boat spam ( but it seems like you already want to change it ) and the speed by railroad.
    Boats will be capped (absolute cap or dynamic cap) and the CAI was convinced to recruit less boats and more land units.
    Railroads didn't exist at that time and I'd like to remove them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    Do you intend to change anything to diplomacy and the allegiance system ?
    Diplomacy in this game is quite useless due to the backstabbing, traitorous AI. There's not much I can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    Good luck with this mod, FOTS is almost perfect I'm curious to see what you'll do with it ;-)
    FotS is far from perfect. Otherwise, I wouldn't have to mod so much.

    Regarding the Sengoku campaign: would it make sense to add nagamaki units? Apparently, Oda Nobunaga favored them, but only the front rows were actually using them.

    Updates:
    Yesterday, I managed to fix Sengoku naval battles. Now a kanon bune is finally able to sink a bloody kobaya. Whoever lowered the damage of the european cannons should walk the planks.
    Is there anyone who can help me with naval battles? I was able to find the historical speed in knots for Boshin ships, but the Sengoku ones are guesswork. Someone claimed an oatakebune was able to achieve 4 knots. CA chose 6 for top speed, so I lowered the speed of all traditional ships by 2 knots. Furthermore, traditional ship acceleration was halfed and turn rate decreased by 1. After all, they're rowing boats and not steam ships.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  20. #200
    Yerevan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 14.04.28 released]

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    Diplomacy in this game is quite useless due to the backstabbing, traitorous AI. There's not much I can do.
    Ok, so it can't be changed.... I find it so absurd when a daymio change his clan allegiance just in order to backstab you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    Boats will be capped (absolute cap or dynamic cap) and the CAI was convinced to recruit less boats and more land units.
    Another good feature :-) I'm eager to play this mod.
    Last edited by Yerevan; April 30, 2014 at 01:50 AM.
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