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Thread: Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

  1. #1
    Artifex
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    Default Shogun II Total Realism [Beta 15.10.02 released]

    Shougun 2 Total Realism

    Introduction:
    Shogun 2 Total Realism is a massive overhaul of Shougun 2 Total War. The aim of this mod consists of making this game more plausible/realistic. It will continue the work of Shogun 2 Realism+ and Rise of the Samurai Realism+ which were created by DaVinci, a veteran realism modder.

    Features:
    Military
    - More realistic unit stats for weapons, armours, projectiles (without trails) and different effects of training (Inspired by RealCombat 2.0) -> longer battles
    - Fatigue was swapped with a "cohesion" system as the AI is not capable of handling fatigue
    - JaM's marvelous morale system from Empire Realism
    - Many new and historically correct units
    - More types of Pirates and they now act as light ambush infantry
    - Souhei wear no sashimonos
    - Regional special troops like Sendai's Sendai-dou Samurai and Kai's Akazonae
    - Adjusted uniforms, banners and faction colours
    - Socket bayonets for several modern Boshin troops (with yari animations though)
    - Japanese unit names.


    Campaign
    - Dynamic unit caps (The more provinces with barracks you have, the more troops can be recruited)
    - Removed tech tree for Genpei and Sengoku campaigns as targeted research didn't exist at that time
    - More interesting building effects
    - Fewer, but improved building chains with new effects, so the lowly 6 building slots won't hurt as much
    - 24 turns per year and Sengoku campaign starts in 1570
    - Implementation of DaVinci's CAI changes

    Downloads:
    Download the mod from NextCloud

    Installation Instructions:
    - Download the files and place them in your Shougun 2 "data" folder (the mod is self-activating)
    - If you don't want to use it, simply remove it from the data folder and put it somewhere else.
    - Go to User/YourName/AppData/Roaming/The Creative Assembly/Shogun 2/ and delete the all folders besides maps, advisor_history and scripts to prevent strange errors from happening

    ATTENTION FOR MP!
    If you want to play MP custom battles or campaigns, you have to be careful. Steam might reset your avatar if it detects mods.
    Even without mods, you should personally backup your avatar to be on the safe side:
    - Simply backup your avatar data which can be found in Steam/userdata/RandomNumber/34330
    - If your Avatar gets deleted, overwrite it with your backup
    Only works with deactivated SteamCloud, so remporarily deactivate it to perform the backup.

    License:

    Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International

    Steam Group:
    S2TR does have its own Steam group: Shogun II Total Realism Mod (S2TRM). Join us if you want to play some realistic battles against worthy opponents.

    Screenshots:
    I will upload new ones in the near future

    FAQ:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Why are the Genpei and Sengoku unit sizes so low? The common tactical unit of the Sengoku jidai was the "tai", a group consisting of 50-100 warriors. During the Genpei era, the Japanese used the kondei military system which prefered smaller, better trained troops over conscripted peasants. Thanks to my new unit stats, melee duration is longer than in vanilla Shogun II and all other mods.
    Why do units and ships move so slow? Again, these are realistic walking and sailing values.
    What's up with the morale system? Units usually start running when they have lost 50% of their manpower or if they have received huge casualities in a short amount of time.
    How does cohesion work? Instead of using the fatigue system which the AI can't handle, I've switched over to a cohesion system based on JaM's works. Units quickly regain cohesion by standing still and penalties for disordered troops are rather tame.
    Where are the cheat buffs? All of these fantasy features have been removed.
    Why no firing drills like kneel fire or ranked fire? All of CA's fire drills are either wrong and/or bugged (Animation/delay problems). All ranks fire at will gets rid of these problems and simulates the chaos on the battlefield, not to mention the misfires that could happen.
    What's with the projectiles? Arrows are best used against enemies with low armour stats and can be good at demoralizing the enemy. The first salvos will be quite weak as it mostly wounds the men, but continuous fire increases casualties. Fire arrows are restricted to siege and naval battles. Troops have a range of 80 m. Arquebuses were quite inaccurate, had a range of 100 m and the misfire chance was ~16%. Therefore, you should prefer point-blank volleys if possible. They are very devastating. Modern rifles have different accuracy and spread values as well as low misfire chances. Ranges: ~150 m. Skirmisher with chassepots can fire much farther.
    Where are the katana and no-dachi units? The katana was a secondary weapon and could easily break. Japanese prefered the yari. Katanas were used during the Boshin war though, where close quarter street fights were common. No-dachi were rarely used on the battlefield. If you conquer Satsuma in the Sengoku campaign, you can recruit one unit of Satsuma-Dachi samurai, a regional special unit.


    Tactics Tutorial:
    The Art of Battle - Basic Tactics
    Battle formations for samurai armies in the Sengoku period

    Documentation:
    Documentation will follow when the new additions are finished

    Reading:


    Recommended Submods:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Better Maps by Frodo45127
    Expanded map mod is not compatible as it overwrites my start_pos files


    Credits:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Alternative Clan Colours: Demokritos
    Bayonets: IgDood and kungfuserge
    Empire Total Realism morale system and battle entities: JaM, DaVinci, Dandelion, Gorhaax, Filmor, Didz, Wangrin, Minas Moth, Kaunitz, mAIOR+
    FotS Artillery + Katana scabbard + Heavy Bune oar fix: weirdoascensor
    Howitzer model: Primergy, shokh
    Kyoto main menu background: Frodo45127
    Shogun II Gloss Overhaul: Superghostboy NoBWN
    FotS Historical Flags, Banners and Uniforms + Better Bows: Noif de Bodemloze
    PFM: daniu
    Shogun 2 Realism team: Agostinos, DaVinci, Drtad, St. Cyr, GShock, Hister, dbzvl, vuvihu, tan zhi han, TylerX5, Poulp, Radious, Yarkis, zowrath
    Tercos Unit Variety Mod, Daimyo mod and better horse textures: Bullgod
    UAI: spartan_warrior
    Vastator's Unit Styles: = Vastator =
    Suggestions: Alexandr Vasilyevich Suvorov, Fujiwara, La Tene, Marcus Tulius, Marshall of France, Plan C, SD_Man, weirdoascensor
    Sengoku campaign crash fix: icenisuebi
    CA for the Assembly Kit, the lack of crashlogs and the infamous sound bug
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Banner.jpg  
    Last edited by Destin Faroda; September 01, 2019 at 05:57 PM.

  2. #2
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Though I have no experince, I have some links to some very good mods which will help you out, and plz make the battles feel like a proper sengoku Jidhai battle.

    Here are youtube videos to help







    Please also add a lot of banners, and etc. Sengoku battles were probably the most filled with flags and all.

    Here are the mods

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13314031

    There are the Hayabushi Modding triology mods, try out their mods as well.

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ailable!-Enjoy

    I hope that helps, but if you contact the modder of the acc, he might be able to help you with this one.

    Not much help, but to give you a starter





















































  3. #3
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Interesting, I wonder if having dlc units is important? I don't have the Sengoku Jidai unit dlc or pretty much all the mini dlcs except for the expansions... Unless if somebody is willing to gift me some.

    I await this especially since you helped with DaVinci's Realism mod.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    This looks really good, sir. As I said before - Sengoku Jidai balanced for the extended map is the stuff dreams are made of... Best of luck!

  6. #6
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Content Staff
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    this sounds cool i noticed you said expanded map is this the expanded map mod?

  8. #8
    Herr Doctor's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Sounds interesting. Good luck to your project.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman
    Interesting, I wonder if having dlc units is important? I don't have the Sengoku Jidai unit dlc or pretty much all the mini dlcs except for the expansions... Unless if somebody is willing to gift me some.
    That could be problematic. I have the European Gold version and I intend to use all the resources available to me (uniform parts, some of the new units etc.). There might be problems if you don't have those DLCs (Or are they in your files, but deactivated for MP compatibility reasons?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France
    Here are more articles for you on the Sengoku period, it is difficult finding them, though I am trying to find as many as I can
    Thank you very much for the sources. I will read them later when the Boshin campaign is finished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringing Terror
    this sounds cool i noticed you said expanded map is this the expanded map mod?
    Yes, the expanded map mod is going to be a part of Shogun 2 Total Realism.
    My Mods:
    RCM 2 for Medieval II Total War Kingdoms
    A battle realism mod for all four Medieval II Total War Kingdoms campaigns

    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  10. #10

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Hi Destin, are you still working on the mod? Wouldn't dare chase you, just thought I'd check in. Cheers!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    No worries, I'm still working on the mod. As it is a one man project, it is going to take a while.
    The Boshin Realism part is coming along nice though. Custom battles are much more enjoyable with the new units, stats and projectiles. I fear that proper building chains and technologies will be more difficult though.
    If I had a helper with knowledge of Boshin warfare and some testers, things might speed up. However, locating info about the Boshin period is difficult, so I have to look for tidbits of info all over the web. For example, someone from Samurai Archives stated that the troops used Napoleonic tactics despite the lethality of the modern rifles, so I have guessed that the Japanese (especially taking the help of European military instructors into consideration) might have used hussars and ulans. The Republicans even got cuirassiers (with an unused breastplate model) and chasseurs (jägers, irregulars, kyohei). This reminds me that they still need an agent...
    If Boshin runs fine, I will probably move to Gempei as it has a manageable unit roster. This way, I can test if my area recruitment system (the more land you hold, the more troops you can have) is going to work. Afterwards, the complicated Sengoku period will follow. I am thinking about changing the timescale to late Sengoku. The standard campaign is too long (with 12 turns per year) and it is difficult to properly present the advancements and changes of that period. I don't know if people enjoy very long campaigns with very slow research. Besides, a long campaign would need many new troops and appropriate models (old samurai, modern samurai with tosei gusoku armor, chugen, ashigaru, sakunin and gesakunin) which could break the AOR system.
    My Mods:
    RCM 2 for Medieval II Total War Kingdoms
    A battle realism mod for all four Medieval II Total War Kingdoms campaigns

    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  12. #12

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Hmmm... All good points (regarding Sengoku). I think 1545 is great if one wanted to swing the spotlight on stuff like Ouchi Yoshitaka / Sue Harukata / Mori Motonari triangle, Ryuzoji Takanobu 'treachery', Imagawa Yoshimoto / Sessai Choro steamroller, Shingen's battles in Shinano, Saito Dosan's rise and war against Yoshitatsu etc. but not if we're talking the real buildup of tension and the crescendo of 1570 - 1600. I personally wouldn't mind moving the start date to 1560, if only to keep Imagawa as a major force in Tokai. I don't think the preceding 15 years matter too much, especially with 12 tpy...

    I love to think I love slow campaigns but I just like challenging campaigns with lots to do, rather than 800 turns of tedium, if you know what mean. I would say, with extended map, I would be more than happy with a start date of 1560 and I can easily see playing for 400 turns. Extended map gives you lots more to do and potentially a large number of relatively powerful actors, with 2 - 3 superpowers (at least that is my experience with basic Extended Japan mod). Also, everything that saves you extra work is preferable. The only thing that worries me somewhat is balancing the clans; by 1560 Takeda, Hojo, Mori, Uesugi and Imagawa would be very, very strong on the EJ map (each with 4 - 5 provs) so something to bear in mind. Maybe some of the kori nominally within their orbit should just be held by vassals, like Kikkawa, Matsudaira, Sanada etc?

    I am happy to test and make suggestions so PM me if you need me to test something. I will do my best to help out, although cannot promise 100% reliability due to RL, sorry. but a PM never hurts so please let me know.
    Last edited by Plan C; November 15, 2013 at 12:30 PM.

  13. #13
    Artifex
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    I have uploaded some (outdated) concepts, ideas and files to GitHub. Whenever I need the service of testers, I will upload an alpha version and post a link.
    This way, you can help me improve my mod. Besides, I can issue tasks like testing the number of shots a unit can fire per minute or analysing the morale of different units that are attacked from behind by hussars.
    My Mods:
    RCM 2 for Medieval II Total War Kingdoms
    A battle realism mod for all four Medieval II Total War Kingdoms campaigns

    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  14. #14

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Sounds fab mate, keep me in the loop

  15. #15

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Plan C View Post
    Hmmm... All good points (regarding Sengoku). I think 1545 is great if one wanted to swing the spotlight on stuff like Ouchi Yoshitaka / Sue Harukata / Mori Motonari triangle, Ryuzoji Takanobu 'treachery', Imagawa Yoshimoto / Sessai Choro steamroller, Shingen's battles in Shinano, Saito Dosan's rise and war against Yoshitatsu etc. but not if we're talking the real buildup of tension and the crescendo of 1570 - 1600. I personally wouldn't mind moving the start date to 1560, if only to keep Imagawa as a major force in Tokai. I don't think the preceding 15 years matter too much, especially with 12 tpy...

    I love to think I love slow campaigns but I just like challenging campaigns with lots to do, rather than 800 turns of tedium, if you know what mean. I would say, with extended map, I would be more than happy with a start date of 1560 and I can easily see playing for 400 turns. Extended map gives you lots more to do and potentially a large number of relatively powerful actors, with 2 - 3 superpowers (at least that is my experience with basic Extended Japan mod). Also, everything that saves you extra work is preferable. The only thing that worries me somewhat is balancing the clans; by 1560 Takeda, Hojo, Mori, Uesugi and Imagawa would be very, very strong on the EJ map (each with 4 - 5 provs) so something to bear in mind. Maybe some of the kori nominally within their orbit should just be held by vassals, like Kikkawa, Matsudaira, Sanada etc?

    I am happy to test and make suggestions so PM me if you need me to test something. I will do my best to help out, although cannot promise 100% reliability due to RL, sorry. but a PM never hurts so please let me know.
    agreed with everything said. also, take a look at one of the ideas from TROM3 to "borrow" : a tech chain that significantly improves (and extends the roster of) ashigaru, this way you can have crap ashigaru at the start that will be a good, reliable, numerous force in the mid-late game
    "Name none of the fallen, for they stood in our place, and stand there still in each moment of our lives. Let my death hold no glory, and let me die forgotten and unknown. Let it not be said that I was one among the dead to accuse the living."

  16. #16

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by raest View Post
    agreed with everything said. also, take a look at one of the ideas from TROM3 to "borrow" : a tech chain that significantly improves (and extends the roster of) ashigaru, this way you can have crap ashigaru at the start that will be a good, reliable, numerous force in the mid-late game
    Yeah, that's what Fra70 has done in True Samurai too; you have a progression of ashigaru from basic levy (tied to farm chain) to a professional soldiery (tied to spear dojo chain). Definitely doable and would only make the mod more complete.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    GREAT! sounds awesome - keep up the good work!
    best regards...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Destin Faroda View Post
    - Working on the new Boshin Realism units.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Battoutai

    Elite sonno joi units with modern uniforms and katanas. Due to their cloth uniforms, they can't compete with armored troops, but they have a melee defense of 9 (katana parrying +4, light armour +3, superior troop +2) and good morale.

    Additions so far: Battoutai, Denshutai, Denshutai Hussars & Ulans, Gakuheitai, Imperial Hussars & Ulans, Joushitai, Kogekitai, Mimawarigumi, Police forces, Raigekitai, Republican Cuirassiers & Chasseurs & Hussars & Ulans, Shinchougumi.
    I expect that those "elite" swordsmen would be utterly annihilated by a bayonet charge. "Katana parrying skill" means very little when a large number of charging men have crashed into them with weapons of considerably longer reach. Armoured samurai would be battered, and some would be knocked down, but most would survive thanks to their armour and triumph in the ensuing close combat. This "light armour" would do nothing against the force of a few hundred charging bayonets. The men in the back row, if they haven't explosively soiled themselves and fled like most men did when faced with bayonets during the Napoleonic Wars, would have a much better chance of killing a few of the charging foe, but force of numbers would overcome them eventually. This is assuming superiority of numbers on the charging side; a unit would not usually charge unless it was resonably sure of victory.

    Even if the swordmen charged the bayonets, the longer reach of a wall of bayonets would mean that they would have to slow down and try to individually fight their way through, so their charge bonus would be precisely zero except when attacking from the flanks or rear. If they did break into their foe's lines, they have a much better chance, but superior numbers will be necessary to avoid the few men who fight their way through being simultaneously skewered by multiple bayonets from the men in the back lines.

    There is a reason that the spear was chosen over the sword as a primary weapon in Japan, and the bayonet is much more like a spear than a sword. Where the sword excels is in single combat, where wieldyness and manoevrability are very important. In a massed melee of men in lines, swords are fairly useless unless the enemy's line is broken in some way.

    The one situation which would find a use of these men, other than using them as a sort of slow-motion shock cavalry for charging the enemy's flanks or rear (and even then, a square would see them off mostly) is for charging levy units, or units stupid enough to have left their bayonets in the camp the night before. On seeing opponents closing to melee, they would either frantically try to use their guns as clubs, draw swords (putting them on an equal level where superior swordsmanship will win) or, most likely, flee, leaving a large pool of urine as they do. In each of these situations, the swordsmen will triumph. But this seems fairly unlikely on the battlefield. Before the ring bayonet, pikes were used to protect musketeers from being charged, though superior force of pikes or cavalry with longer lances could still break through. Once the infantryman could make his musket into a short pike and still fire, the pike was obsolete, though a bayonet was far less effective at stopping cavalry, hence the square formation. Cavalry found it almost impossible to break a square unsupported. If a general's musketeers lacked bayonets, then "pike and shot" was the best solution, and these swordsmen would struggle to break through a pike hedge without the support of their own pikemen.

    During the Italian Wars and other contemporary conflicts, swordsmen and halberdiers broke through pike squares, but only if their own pikes were also fighting. A pikeman reaching down to stab a rodelero crawling along the ground would be swiftly piked in the face by an opposing pikeman, so men could get through the pikes, forcing the pikemen to drop their pikes and draw secondary weapons. If the front rows slipped past each other's pikes, which was common thanks to pike-stopping breastplates and other armour, pikes could be driven up vertically, resulting in a "push of pike" where most of both sides' front rows ended up dead from slashing with swords, daggers and axes. It was called a "bad war" for a reason, and was thankfully quite rare. This is not to be confused with re-enactors mutually rasing their pikes and having a shoving match; a "push of pike" was always accidental and very undesirable, and the pikes were shoved up in the air only after the fighting had begun and both sides tried to stab each other in the face. If one side raised pikes and the other did not, the side with raised pikes would receive a sharp surprise. Most pike battles were either fought at the length of the pike, or not at all; one side usually withdrew, and sometimes routed.

    Enough about pikes, this was supposed to be about swordsmen. My point was that on the battlefield, "defence skill" and "parrying skill" meant approximately diddly-squat most of the time, and that against even a competent 17th-century army these men would likely be routed with horrendous casualties. Against a 19th-century army, each man ought to write his death poem before entering battle. The only troops that they could confidently defeat, unless they attacked from the flanks or rear, are poorly trained levies without bayonets or supporting pikes. Therefore, describing them as "elite" is something of a misnomer...

  19. #19
    Artifex
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    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    I expect that those "elite" swordsmen would be utterly annihilated by a bayonet charge.
    Theoretically, yes. However, the game is far from realistic and my battle stats are still not final.
    Let me explain this further: the battoutai did really exist and therefore, I decided to add them to the game. They are rare and only the sonno joi can recruit them. Of course, I was surprised to hear that unarmored men armed with short sidearms went into battle, but they would have probably been smart enough to pick their battles wisely. The Shinsengumi were also known to prefer katanas. Charging elite infantry with modern rifles + bayonets would definitely be suicide (as it is now the case in my mod), but the bakufu infantry with their primitive tanegashima and gewehr rifles (50m effective killing range, bad accuracy, slow reloading) would have been easy targets for the battoutai. If I send the battoutai against katana kachi, the latter would most likely win due to their tosei gusoku armour (10 armor value).
    The battoutai require careful use. Flanking the enemy seems to work well right now. However, this job can also be taken care of by the new hussar and ulan units.

    Now to the heart of the matter: the battle system. I have acquired the newest version of RealCombat 2, which defined realistic stats for weapons, armors, heat, horses and unit quality. It works well on Medieval 2, but using it on Shogun 2 is not possible due to the following problems:
    - RC 2 is for Medieval 2 which is a different engine with different unit stats.
    - Warscape engine cavalry can dismount and they have dismounted attack and charge attack stats (but no dismounted defense). Therefore, it is not part of RealCombat 2 and has to be implemented into the new system.
    - Japanese warfare is different from Medieval European one. I had to guess the stats for weapons like bayonets, naginata, tetsubo etc. and they are probably not without faults.
    - Shogun 2 has armour, melee attack, charge attack, dismounted melee attack, dismounted charge, anti-cavalry-bonus and defence. Due to CA's secrecy, it is not entirely known what these values represent. However, this is a requirement in order to create a perfect realistic battle system.
    What we can definitely say though is that armour can save lifes and its power increases exponentially. Defence is parrying/evasion and can prolong melee combat. Attack is the most mysterious value. I guess it is some kind of hit chance, but maybe it also represents damage.

    This is what I have developed (under the presumption that melee attack represents damage): https://github.com/DestinFaroda/Shog...-and-Modifiers
    Posts like this one and that one probably have a point. I guess I have to change the system again, this time with hit chance in mind instead of damage. Can't CA simply create two new values named hit chance and damage? That would make things easier for modders.
    My Mods:
    RCM 2 for Medieval II Total War Kingdoms
    A battle realism mod for all four Medieval II Total War Kingdoms campaigns

    Shogun II Total Realism
    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  20. #20

    Default Re: Shogun II Total Realism

    The battoutai would be effective against reluctant, badly-equipped conscripts, and also in ambushes, though ambush and other asymmetrical warfare is badly represented in-game. Generals would also likely cover infantry without bayonets with pikes to prevent them from being charged, as was common in the "pike and shot" period.

    European equivalents can be matched to Japanese weapons. The yari is a pike, the katana a one-handed sword, the naginata a glaive, the nodachi a longsword and the yumi a longbow. By "glaive" I mean the real mediaeval polearm, not the oversized spiky chakram that is called a "glaive" in some fantasy fiction. Call it an "oversized spiky chakram" instead, if you must use it at all. (You may have realised by now that I am not the greatest fan of fantasy fiction.)

    If it is possible to make formation have a big effect on the outcome of close combat, please try to make it that way. Men standing in an organised line will fare far better than men fighting individually, especially if armed with spears. Spears should be much more effective in formation, but if the formation is broken, then swords become massively more effective, so a broken pike unit will be slaughtered unless they also draw swords or supporting units arrive. I doubt that the concept of "reach" exists in-game, but if it does, then it would be a good way to implement this (spears have longer reach, but if swordsmen get inside them then they are defenseless).

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