Problems with formed attack and unit cohesion. And how CA can fix it...

**DogSoldierSPQR** · October 11, 2013, 11:31 PM

As soon as first played Rome 2 and found that Guard mode was replaced by "Formation attack", I just knew it was going to suck. And guess what? It did/does.

Formation attack literally renders individual soldiers complete idiots. They care more about running around in circles desperately trying to reform rather than fight off some big hairy dude with a sword longer than him. Countless times I've seen units just do this. You want to know what the root-cause of this is? The charges. They are done wrong...when they actually activate. You see, in Rome 2, every single soldier in the unit is charging. This is wrong. Only the front rank is supposed to charge and then the second, third and even fourth ranks should just keep up and then come to a stop just before the scrap.

You wondering how this is the root-cause of the problem? Here's how. Most of the time, the soldiers in the front rank have already found a target and are already engaging someone in the front rank of the enemy unit, however, your second rank guys keep on going until they find someone...which is usually in the enemy's second rank. What you have is 10s of guys trying to cram up into a little space. Now, when the second rank guys of your unit try going back into formation, they don't have much success because some guys from the same rank are already engaging in animations and can't make their way back. What happens then? Your soldiers start playing "Ring around a rosie" somehow thinking that's going to help.

So, how can CA fix this? Just like with the javelins, disable the second rank and onwards from charging and make sure they are programmed to keep a good distance from the front rank so that they don't interfere and can nicely form up behind. I refuse to play with patch 4's boring running speeds. Running isn't even running. I can't even call it jogging. I have faster running speeds which just exacerbate this problem immensely and really exposes these problems for what they are. Having rear ranks crashing into the front is just pointless anyway in reality. You'd cause more damage to your own than the enemy would.

Also, formation attack just sucks. It don't work. Please, CA, don't waste your time on it. It's bad enough that all animations are fancy and not "group-oriented" which makes keeping formation bad enough as it is. Just re-implement Guard mode. We shouldn't have to attack just to get our guys to fight in a formation. Also, get rid of that spinning stuff. Trust me, it's not helping. We suffer more casualties like that as they expose more flanks.

In a nutshell: Remove charge ability from non-first rank soldiers. Scrap formation attack as it makes things worse. You have not got the right engine for it. And Warscape needs to go.

**Biggus Splenus** · October 11, 2013, 11:36 PM

Formation attack has guard mode passively; if you don't like the effect it creates, I've got a mod that removes it. Link in sig

**GnaReffotsirk** · October 12, 2013, 12:10 AM

I'm seeing how the collision box (circle in case for Men entities) collapse, or become smaller when units clash. With beta 4, I'm seeing them go and become zero(0) then whip back to normal again, causing the shake-rattle-and-pop, blobbing, and the such.

For phalanx, I recommend some collision objects created in front of the pike men when they have pikes down. Simulating the same effect when men try to force their bodies through each other in a blob, with or without the (if true) bug where the collision drops or becomes none existent.

Formations should restrict another unit from passing through, when units become engaged, and the spring should take into considerations certain things like being charged upon, which should break the restriction else, spread the men so as to allow entanglements. But when a unit is undisturbed, formations, especially tight ones, or ones used by non-crowd units, should restrict another unit from passing through.

How then can we order another unit of ours to move through them? Add a flag if the unit is in combat or not. If not, allow, make the unit spread out, then come back again to formation.

What if they are attacked while in this state? The units will be in a broken state.

How the AI will handle this is another task to think about.

**DogSoldierSPQR** · October 12, 2013, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Splenyi

Formation attack has guard mode passively; if you don't like the effect it creates, I've got a mod that removes it. Link in sig

Cheers for the link. I've already experimented with it but the thing is, to get the effect of guard mode, you must attack. When your units are idle and get attacked, they go mad and start seeking targets themselves instead of sticking together. The only way to get the effects of guard mode is to actually go on the attack which kind of defeats the purpose of guard mode in the first place. Not sure what CA was thinking with this. I doubt anyone would've cared if they removed it from Shogun 2, but Antiquity is the one era which would kill for guard mode and it was taken.

Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham

I agree to a large extent Dog old chap, but what would replace warscape?
and all that!

CA really needs to create an engine completely suited for the Total War experience. From scratch. No modifications. From the ground up. It should, first and foremost, cater to melee combat. This engine was created for projectile warfare and not something Rome 2 needed. In my eyes, Warscape is a major reason for why Rome 2 truly flopped. Built on an engine that is not supportive of the combat type we need. Creative Assembly just needs to turn everything around now. I know it's costly and isn't done over night, but if CA fix the hell out of Rome 2 and give us modding tools, many would be prepared to wait however many years it takes to just get a better engine up there. Personally I don't care for the other TW titles. Antiquity does it for me. If CA just fixed Rome 2, gave us the best modding tools ever...I'd even wait for the second coming of Jesus haha
Time isn't an issue if quality is at stake, which I know you'd agree with.

By the way, I love the way you say "And all that" haha.

**Biggus Splenus** · October 12, 2013, 01:41 AM

Warscape wasn't created for projectile warfare, that's just the state it was left in; if CA spent some more time editing the crap out of that engine (much cheaper and faster than creating a new engine), then we would have an engine well optomised for melee warfare. They've already optomised it a fair bit though...

There's a few thing that ruin melee combat though:

1) kill moves, they're rediculous, and the men dance around like fencers, even though they have heavy shields, armour and swords; ontop of that, only 1 man can attack 1 man. It's a stupid mechanics that was only implemented for cinematic experience.

2) units running through each other, and units merging for a melee; you can have 2 units engaged in melee in the exact same area, merging with each other, squishing each other, and this offers no penalty.

CA have made many optomisation for melee warfare:
- melee_on_damage_effect_knockback & knockdown factors
- melee_secondary_attack_probability
- melee_outnumbered_defence_penalty
- melee_hit_chance factors
- melee_entrenchement & enviroment factors
- individual attack and armour penetration values for different weapons
- lengths for weapons too
- possibility to make weapons ignore armour
- possibility to make certain armours stronger or weaker against missiles
- melee_defence_direction_penalty_coefficient factors
- collision_damage factors

I suppose they are the major ones... we still need more, but it's not bad.

Originally Posted by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham

I agree to a large extent Dog old chap, but what would replace warscape?
and all that!

A new one, obviously.

**jamreal18** · October 12, 2013, 01:55 AM

If theres going to be a new game engine, i wished it was rome 2.

Sad for roman era...

**Biggus Splenus** · October 12, 2013, 02:17 AM

They got a 40% bigger budget, and spent it on what? I honestly don't know.... units? animation? scenery and nice looking cities? marketing? Screw that, I want them to have a nice, playable game before blowing their money on unnecessaries like that

**rrgg** · October 12, 2013, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Splenyi

Warscape wasn't created for projectile warfare, that's just the state it was left in; if CA spent some more time editing the crap out of that engine (much cheaper and faster than creating a new engine), then we would have an engine well optomised for melee warfare. They've already optomised it a fair bit though...

There's a few thing that ruin melee combat though:

1) kill moves, they're rediculous, and the men dance around like fencers, even though they have heavy shields, armour and swords; ontop of that, only 1 man can attack 1 man. It's a stupid mechanics that was only implemented for cinematic experience.

2) units running through each other, and units merging for a melee; you can have 2 units engaged in melee in the exact same area, merging with each other, squishing each other, and this offers no penalty.

CA have made many optomisation for melee warfare:
- melee_on_damage_effect_knockback & knockdown factors
- melee_secondary_attack_probability
- melee_outnumbered_defence_penalty
- melee_hit_chance factors
- melee_entrenchement & enviroment factors
- individual attack and armour penetration values for different weapons
- lengths for weapons too
- possibility to make weapons ignore armour
- possibility to make certain armours stronger or weaker against missiles
- melee_defence_direction_penalty_coefficient factors
- collision_damage factors

I suppose they are the major ones... we still need more, but it's not bad.

A new one, obviously.

Probably the only thing keeping it afloat right now is the way those two issues sort of balance each other out (lots of troops merged into the front line, but combat is 1v1 so it doesn't matter too much)

Do you know if there's a good way to make the repellent force stronger so that soldiers act more like solid objects than jello?

**jamreal18** · October 12, 2013, 03:05 AM

Only 4 historical battles? Such a waste.... Please bring back those that were cut...

**Biggus Splenus** · October 12, 2013, 03:57 AM

Not relevant, but i totally agree! They were great, now we've got 4 instead of the dozen we usually have.

**Neige** · October 12, 2013, 04:28 AM

This is actually the number one issue right now that keeps me from playing this game. The battles are unenjoyable mosh pits... Look at boarding in naval battles, units just clump together in a big ball, it looks so poorly done. Where are the epic boarding fights from Napoleon and Empire with lots of small engagements all over the ship?

**Octavius Vatco** · October 12, 2013, 04:39 AM

I agree with the OP.. That is why CA should consider representing Polybius' observation of the unit spacing 1.8m across by 1.8m deep... This absolutely makes sense. Rome 1 represented this decently.

**Kenios** · October 12, 2013, 05:20 AM

Originally Posted by Splenyi

1) kill moves, they're rediculous, and the men dance around like fencers, even though they have heavy shields, armour and swords; ontop of that, only 1 man can attack 1 man. It's a stupid mechanics that was only implemented for cinematic experience.

Of course it's for the cinematic experience. It's a game! It's entertainment! It's like watching Kill Bill and seeing all that fancy fighting moves. Yet when you see a real match between world-class fencers at the Olympics, their moves don't look flashy at all. Do you think people who watch Troy remember the desperate fighting between the nameless soldiers beneath the walls of Troy, or will they remember the excitement-filled fight between Hector and Achilles?

**Neige** · October 12, 2013, 05:30 AM

Melee animations can be "cinematic" and flashy without actors shuffling back and forth covering a distance of several meters. I think it does contribute to the overall feeling of messiness in battles, which was Splenyi's point anyway.

**Biggus Splenus** · October 12, 2013, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kenios

Of course it's for the cinematic experience. It's a game! It's entertainment! It's like watching Kill Bill and seeing all that fancy fighting moves. Yet when you see a real match between world-class fencers at the Olympics, their moves don't look flashy at all. Do you think people who watch Troy remember the desperate fighting between the nameless soldiers beneath the walls of Troy, or will they remember the excitement-filled fight between Hector and Achilles?

My point was that the implementation is terrible. The actual mechanics of it are crappy, and CA clearly just wanted to create something that looked good, not something that was good.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4

**pajomife** · October 12, 2013, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Splenyi

Formation attack has guard mode passively; if you don't like the effect it creates, I've got a mod that removes it. Link in sig

Can you tell me what db file and what table you use? Id like to ty it in my mod.

**pajomife** · October 12, 2013, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Splenyi

Formation attack has guard mode passively; if you don't like the effect it creates, I've got a mod that removes it. Link in sig

Can you tell me what db file and what table you use? Id like to ty it in my mod.

**DogSoldierSPQR** · October 12, 2013, 02:01 PM

The fancy stuff should've stayed in Shogun 2. In Rome 2, formations are the key to winning battles but for us keeping the formation is a battle all on it's own.

The animations look good and props to the animation team, including the animators who actually did do a good job but the thing is, they made the wrong types of animations. It's always going to be impossible to hold a formation if the animation itself is supposed to have the soldiers fighting over a few metres. However, CA can fix this too. I say that the animation team just re-edit the animations and try their best to disable the leg movements and make them more so they're fighting on a spot. It can be done. Very time-consuming as you're literally changing the whole feel of the animation but this would allow CA to give us a group-oriented version of the same animations.

But yeah, this lack of cohesion overall is a game-killer for me and I know a lot of other people too. I know CA truly would like to fix this but I firmly believe that they are going about it wrong. Guard mode was never broken, therefore, it should never have been removed and there is no reason adequate enough to even debate it's return. I wouldn't even care if CA left formation attack for attack but at least just give us guard mode for defence at least. I feel as though my soldiers must charge first to win as they all break on contact anyway and suffer casualties from the charge.