Are arrows, javelins and pila underpowered ?

[cleef]

So I was wondering if we can discuss this topic a bit.

I'm playing as the romans and in my oppinion the pilum, for example, which is supposed to be a very useful feature in battle for the roman army, seems to be rather useless, when dealing frontal blows.

I know, obviously, that the front ranged attacks are much less successful than those from the back or, perhaps, sides but this is just pathetic in my oppinion and very unrealistic.

It's easy to win fights by using the hammer and anvil technique but I doubt everyone back in the days simply surrounded the enemy army with archers and slingers and just fired away freely until the army routed.

I've also had archers with experience, fire at barbaric (unarmored) light infantry and it took 2 full salvo's to kill just 1 guy.

I'm not saying these arrows and missiles should kill half the squad but I think perhaps a higher number of kills per salvo might seem realistic, especially for the pilum.

Anyway I'm just throwing this in here and I'd like to hear some feedback on what the other guys think ?

[Zydrius]

You might want to check this thread (if you have not done that already): http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?615602-Campaign-battles-and-missilles-What-has-changed-in-2-6

Missiles and cavalry are quite popular subjects of RS disscussions. I have some thoughts of my own about them, but I trust in RS team that they do all they think is best to make this mod as brilliant as possible.

[Love Mountain]

Anything with shields will generally be immune to arrows. Which does make sense. Missiles and Javelin fire does not account for the majority of the kills in the ancient world. They are meant to harass and soften up the enemy. What enemies are missiles super useful against? Units with their flanks and back exposed. Aim for the side that's not covered by the shield. Moreover, Missile Cavalry, excluding cataphract archers, and other archers/slingers/peltasts are super vulnerable against massive volley fire. In my campaigns against Parthia I always keep at least 8 Archer Units and 2 Horse Archers units just because missiles slaughter un-armored men that much. You gotta fight fire with fire.

Even against armies that I know field heavy infantry like Rome and Egypt. I still bring at least 2-4 Archer units because they absolutely poop on enemy missile units and un-suspecting cavalry. That's right, archers cans till kill un-shielded cavalry at the right angle. My experience with using javelins or archers against chariots and elephants has been unsatisfactory to say the least. Against those things Phalanxes are the best tool in my opinion.

Also, do not under-estimate the utility of light infantry in battle. I always train cheap velites and heavy peltasts because they can either flank quickly to inflict horrendous casualties to exposed units with javelins, or they can even hold a place in the battle line for a short time. Think of missiles as a killing tool rather than a harassing tool.

[Fridericus Rex]

But the OP is right - at the moment the archer seem rather useless. I liked them in RS2.5 and they were rather fun to play with.
Is there a way to give them just a little bit more effectiveness? Any advise on what to alter for personal use?

[Aismov]

Missiles and Javelin fire does not account for the majority of the kills in the ancient world. They are meant to harass and soften up the enemy. What enemies are missiles super useful against? Units with their flanks and back exposed. Aim for the side that's not covered by the shield. Moreover, Missile Cavalry, excluding cataphract archers, and other archers/slingers/peltasts are super vulnerable against massive volley fire.

Agreed, but with a slight twist. The point of many heavy missiles (not arrows) was more to cause the enemy to drop their shield. Obviously this is something that can't be modeled in RTW, so we have to stick with what we have. In real life a frontal volley would have more likely caused the line to be disrupted and forced the enemy to either drop their shield or to stop advancing, expose themselves and try to dislodge the javelin.

I think that the amount of "flanking missile fire" tactics that we use in RTW are a bit a-historical since armies flanked with heavy infantry or cavalry. Thats why battles like Gaugamela were an exception when Alexander flanked with the Companions AND light infantry... although the light infantry were used more to keep Bessus' cavalry force of Alexander's flank than to shower the main enemy line.

[Searry]

Underpowered? They're the best killers if you choose the right moment to use them. Protip: Flank flank flank, always flank the enemy, number one strategy to winning all battles in RSII and possibly destroying all enemy units if you manage to use your cavalry to roll up each flank and envelop the enemy.

[cleef]

Underpowered? They're the best killers if you choose the right moment to use them. Protip: Flank flank flank, always flank the enemy, number one strategy to winning all battles in RSII and possibly destroying all enemy units if you manage to use your cavalry to roll up each flank and envelop the enemy.

It's easy to win fights by using the hammer and anvil technique but I doubt everyone back in the days simply surrounded the enemy army with archers and slingers and just fired away freely until the army routed.

The reason for this thread is not to whine about the efficiency/inefficiency of ranged projectiles, it just seems as if they do UNREALISTIC damage to the enemy troops. Whenever I want to finish a battle quick, I just flank the enemy troops with slingers and it's game over, but this is just a pretty unliklely scenario for a real battle in my oppinion.

Also, what about units with shields that are on the run ? Don't/shouldn't they get more casualties when being under enemy ranged fire simply because you can't really defend yourself with a shield and run effectively ?

[Love Mountain]

What enemies are missiles super useful against? Units with their flanks and back exposed. Aim for the side that's not covered by the shield. Moreover, Missile Cavalry, excluding cataphract archers, and other archers/slingers/peltasts are super vulnerable against massive volley fire.

[Budkyns]

if I will use a faster battles submode - Does it somehow improve efficiency of missile units?

[cleef]

I believe so, the mod, as far as I know increases a unit's chance to kill by a certain amount...

[Sertorio]

You can check the changed submod files, but i believe that it was achieved by changing lethality of the melee weapons not missiles.
Cleef threads like these are interesting and are encouraged. The feedback the team has from players is important.
If i am reading right you are questioning about if the damage shoud be increased or not, and if it's realistic or not. On a reality basis i agree that most battle descriptions point, most of the times to frontal clashes with very simple tactics, though we have exceptions like Cannae, Zama etc. However most of the battle descriptions are rarely detailed. On my part, i like the tactical side of RS2 battles, the need to move your units to achieve optimal results. Making it more realistic would make them more FUN ?

As to editing the damage of missile units, it should be fairly simple, look for the unit you want to change in the export_descr_unit.
Example: a velite

type roman velite
dictionary roman_velite
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light_1
soldier roman_velite, 40, 0, 0.712
attributes sea_faring,hide_improved_forest,hide_long_grass,can_sap,hardy,can_swim
formation 1.6, 2.2, 3.2, 4.4, 4,square
stat_health 1, 6
stat_pri 8,6, velite_javelin, 60, 8, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr thrown
stat_sec 8,6, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 25, 0.265
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 4, 11, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 1, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental 11,normal,untrained
stat_charge_dist 300
stat_fire_delay -50000
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 0, 367, 133, 56, 75, 46
ownership romans_brutii

The red number is the damage inflicted by the projectile, try changing it for a higher number and see the results. If you had ap in the stat_pri_attr, it will turn your projectile into armour piercing, making it more efficient against armour and shields. Back up the original file first. before changing.

[Crymson]

So I was wondering if we can discuss this topic a bit.
I'm playing as the romans and in my oppinion the pilum, for example, which is supposed to be a very useful feature in battle for the roman army, seems to be rather useless, when dealing frontal blows.

Much of the pilum's utility lay in its ability to disrupt enemy equipment. Even if it did not kill its target, it would often lodge itself in shields (often requiring them to be discarded) or armor (bequeathing a severe penalty to mobility). Unfortunately, this cannot be represented in RTW.

It's easy to win fights by using the hammer and anvil technique but I doubt everyone back in the days simply surrounded the enemy army with archers and slingers and just fired away freely until the army routed.

I've also had archers with experience, fire at barbaric (unarmored) light infantry and it took 2 full salvo's to kill just 1 guy.

I'm not saying these arrows and missiles should kill half the squad but I think perhaps a higher number of kills per salvo might seem realistic, especially for the pilum.

My legionaries go down in decent numbers when shot from the rear. Making archery any more powerful than it is would imbalance the game, especially because archers gain in ranged strength with every chevron.

[cleef]

Mostly, I just wish for a slight increase in the amount of casualties a squad gets when under enemy ranged fire. That's all...

Armored or not, when units charge my guys, the pilum they throw rarely kills 2-3 units (out of an average of around 200, i use the huge unit scale).

I highly doubt fighters that are on the move (running) could defend themselves so well with their shield that no one would die in one salvo.

[meerkatology]

a simple solution is to take some of the shield value of shielded units and convert it over to defense skill, this would keep melee dmg/defense more or less the same and make frontal missle fire do more dmg. will be tedious to do, but its easily moddable without affecting balance of everything else.

[craziii]

I doubled the attack of everything(melee, missile, javs) except charge. now, everything is as it should be. the mod plays very, very nicely with that change. no more 30+ mins of battles on avg.

[Budkyns]

I doubled the attack of everything(melee, missile, javs) except charge. now, everything is as it should be. the mod plays very, very nicely with that change. no more 30+ mins of battles on avg.

Could you please attach your modified EDU file?

[craziii]

every faction have their own edu file, unless you go for the 1 turn campaign. which is what I changed. get notepad +++ and use the replace all feature. stat pri + attack # and replace it with the stat pri + new doubled number. pro tip, start with the highest attack first. do the same with secondary wep also. it should take you a max a few mins for the change. GL.

[Budkyns]

every faction have their own edu file, unless you go for the 1 turn campaign. which is what I changed. get notepad +++ and use the replace all feature. stat pri + attack # and replace it with the stat pri + new doubled number. pro tip, start with the highest attack first. do the same with secondary wep also. it should take you a max a few mins for the change. GL.

I downloaded notepad + +, but unfortunately I do not know how to do it...This is done using macros or? If I could ask a little advice or instruction

EDIT: ok, it's done At first, I did not expect that the solution could be so primitive so, I doubled "stat_pri" and "stat_sec" ok?

[Budkyns]

so, I doubled "stat_pri" and "stat_sec"

Okay, so in terms of double attack, I'm going back to normal...losses are very large on both sides, and battle again too fast....Instead, I tried to reduce the morale by 4, because I already use faster battle submod, so the total reduction by 5, The resulting impression is far better for the time being. Often I asked the question before .... how can they still fight?! but now no longer

[cleef]

As far as long battles go, I think it's pretty realistic with the exception of units dying very slowly, especially when I completely surround an enemy squad with 2-3 of my own...