Hopefully now you will understand....

[MasterAdnin]

Now that people are starting to talk about Christianity and the Crusades, I'd like to make a statement. As people commonly say, that you cannot blame Christianity for the Crusades, the same applies to Islam and Muslims.

Nowhere in Islam does it specifically state to kill civilians, and if you look, you'll realize and see that Islam condemns the act of killing oneself and killing civilians. People must understand this, or they are simply denying the truth.

Another thing, when people quote the Qu'ran about violent quotes, surahs, and verses, many of them are completely out of context, and now you can see the same is happening in the world today with the Pope's quote. Muslims are quoting it out of context, and that is the exact thing people have been doing with the Qu'ran.

This is not a thread to debate Islam or Christianity, I am simply trying to say that this is the exact same thing that people have done to Islam the past few years.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Ummon]

I think that if I perchance quoted the whole Quran in a post, from beginning to end, you would say that I quote it out of context. Yet sadly, there are so many quotes from the Quran, Hadiths, and so many instances of Islamic intolerance in today's real life, that trying this move cannot work anymore.

[MasterAdnin]

I think that if I perchance quoted the whole Quran in a post, from beginning to end, you would say that I quote it out of context. Yet sadly, there are so many quotes from the Quran, Hadiths, and so many instances of Islamic intolerance in today's real life, that trying this move cannot work anymore.

Again, you cannot blame Islam for the actions of it's followers. Some include interance, and alot of violence. If you see in previous Islamic nations, tolerance of Religion was very big, as was being non-violent. A great Muslim leader was Salladin.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Lasher]

If you see in previous Islamic nations, tolerance of Religion was very big, as was being non-violent. A great Muslim leader was Salladin.

How was he non violent? Although he was more of a moderate Muslim who was more tolerant then most Christians leaders he was a general who killed thousands.

They are uneducated, the mass which follows the extremists. They do not understand Islam.

Explain why a good number of Muslim extremists are college students in western countries?

[Lord Bohemond]

A great Muslim leader was Salladin.

You mean the Saladin who sold all of his Christian prisoners into slavery?

[Richard the Lionheart]

Now that people are starting to talk about Christianity and the Crusades, I'd like to make a statement. As people commonly say, that you cannot blame Christianity for the Crusades, the same applies to Islam and Muslims.

Nowhere in Islam does it specifically state to kill civilians, and if you look, you'll realize and see that Islam condemns the act of killing oneself and killing civilians. People must understand this, or they are simply denying the truth.

Another thing, when people quote the Qu'ran about violent quotes, surahs, and verses, many of them are completely out of context, and now you can see the same is happening in the world today with the Pope's quote. Muslims are quoting it out of context, and that is the exact thing people have been doing with the Qu'ran.

This is not a thread to debate Islam or Christianity, I am simply trying to say that this is the exact same thing that people have done to Islam the past few years.

Salaam,
Adnan

Regarding the violent quotes in the Koran, I think it's quite obvious to the unbiased reader, that they are direct revelations to Muhammed in response to the political situation in which he was involved at the time. Meaning they really don't apply to modern day Muslims, and real Muslims know that.

Of course, people with biased agendas on both sides will take those quotes out of historical context and distort their primary meaning for their own gains and for the purpose of spreading hate throughout the world.

[Pnutmaster]

Regarding the violent quotes in the Koran, I think it's quite obvious to the unbiased reader, that they are direct revelations to Muhammed in response to the political situation in which he was involved at the time. Meaning they really don't apply to modern day Muslims, and real Muslims know that.

Of course, people with biased agendas on both sides will take those quotes out of historical context and distort their primary meaning for their own gains and for the purpose of spreading hate throughout the world.

Not to turn this into a 'Christianity is better than Islam lol' thread, but Jesus did not preach violence as an answer to Roman subjugation and oppression. That would have been an obvious answer to the political situation of 0 AD Middle East, no? Jesus could have continued performing 'miracles' to gain the support of the masses and eventually rallied up an army, proclaiming himself King of the Jews. Such an army might have overpowered the Roman rulers and brought unity to the Middle East of antiquity, but Jesus knew this and deliberately chose not to follow such a path.

This is why some see a distinction between Jesus, the man who turned the other cheek, and Mohammad, the man who beheaded offenders.

P.S - excuse my use of generalities

[Richard the Lionheart]

Not to turn this into a 'Christianity is better than Islam lol' thread, but Jesus did not preach violence as an answer to Roman subjugation and oppression. That would have been an obvious answer to the political situation of 0 AD Middle East, no? Jesus could have continued performing 'miracles' to gain the support of the masses and eventually rallied up an army, proclaiming himself King of the Jews. Such an army might have overpowered the Roman rulers and brought unity to the Middle East of antiquity, but Jesus knew this and deliberately chose not to follow such a path.

This is why some see a distinction between Jesus, the man who turned the other cheek, and Mohammad, the man who beheaded offenders.

P.S - excuse my use of generalities

The only problem is that the Christian version of Jesus could have easily been a myth, but Muhammed is not. Muhammed was a man of his time, society, political situation etc. etc. etc....

[Ó Cathasaigh]

The only problem is that the Christian version of Jesus could have easily been a myth, but Muhammed is not. Muhammed was a man of his time, society, political situation etc. etc. etc....

Then Muhammed was a fool and wrong. As it is stated that Jesus was a prophet of God.
If that's the best counter arguement you can come up with, I think there's little point in argueing.

[Richard the Lionheart]

Then Muhammed was a fool and wrong. As it is stated that Jesus was a prophet of God.
If that's the best counter arguement you can come up with, I think there's little point in argueing.

No matter how you look at it, Muhammed is a much more believable character than the Christian Jesus. The Christian argument of "Jesus is better than Muhammed ...etc. etc. etc." is therefore not very convincing, because to a non-christian, the Christian Jesus has the characteristics of a fictional character.

[LoZz]

the koran didnt tell people to fly planes into towers or blow bombs up in the london subway, its followers made that choice out of their own free will

[Sétanta]

Muslims have demonstrated an eye for an eye approach to things. They claim that approach is holy war. You would think that means that somewhere their religious leaders or religious book told them that killing was acceptable, as long as "God" approved.

Nowhere in Islam does it specifically state to kill civilians,

Does it imply it then? Loopholes, loopholes.

[MasterAdnin]

Muslims have demonstrated an eye for an eye approach to things. They claim that approach is holy war. You would think that means that somewhere their religious leaders or religious book told them that killing was acceptable, as long as "God" approved.

Yes, they have gotten approval from extremist leaders. They are uneducated, the mass which follows the extremists. They do not understand Islam.

Does it imply it then? Loopholes, loopholes.

No It does not. Islam specifically states that killing civilians is prohibited because the fight is with the government, not the people. Also, it condemns suicide.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Sétanta]

Yes, they have gotten approval from extremist leaders. They are uneducated, the mass which follows the extremists. They do not understand Islam.

How can you say that? The mass of people (that implies there are a LOT), are all uneducated, so they don't understand your religion? Are you sure that they understand, and you don't, because you were brought up in a secular environment in america?

You think they were taught that violence is the answer, or that you were taught that it is not?

No It does not. Islam specifically states that killing civilians is prohibited because the fight is with the government, not the people. Also, it condemns suicide.

In a representative democracy, the Government IS the people! How can you say that the Koran condemns suicide when thousands have commited suicide for your God. When will the hypocracy stop. When will the fallacys stop?!

[MasterAdnin]

How can you say that? The mass of people (that implies there are a LOT), are all uneducated, so they don't understand your religion? Are you sure that they understand, and you don't, because you were brought up in a secular environment in america?

You think they were taught that violence is the answer, or that you were taught that it is not?

They were taught that Islam says violence is the answer, when infact, it says the opposite. The Prophet(PBUH) said something like, an educated man is better to a community, than a highly religious one, or something along those lines.

In a representative democracy, the Government IS the people! How can you say that the Koran condemns suicide when thousands have commited suicide for your God. When will the hypocracy stop. When will the fallacys stop?!

That is the point, the terrorists are hypocrites, and are not true Muslims, when will you guys understand :hmmm:.

Salaam,
Adnan

[Kscott]

Now that people are starting to talk about Christianity and the Crusades, I'd like to make a statement. As people commonly say, that you cannot blame Christianity for the Crusades, the same applies to Islam and Muslims.

Nowhere in Islam does it specifically state to kill civilians, and if you look, you'll realize and see that Islam condemns the act of killing oneself and killing civilians. People must understand this, or they are simply denying the truth.

Another thing, when people quote the Qu'ran about violent quotes, surahs, and verses, many of them are completely out of context, and now you can see the same is happening in the world today with the Pope's quote. Muslims are quoting it out of context, and that is the exact thing people have been doing with the Qu'ran.

This is not a thread to debate Islam or Christianity, I am simply trying to say that this is the exact same thing that people have done to Islam the past few years.

Salaam,
Adnan

Nah, my problem with Islam isnt the followers really. You for example have shown that Islam can bring out the righteous in people. However that does not change the fact that I and others see Muhammed as a terrible man. I simply dont like the craft of a bad craftsmen.

[bdh]

This is not a thread to debate Islam or Christianity, I am simply trying to say that this is the exact same thing that people have done to Islam the past few years.

Your comparison is fair, and I'm obliged to agree. Its not right to attack Islam as a religion. Distictions must be made.

They were taught that Islam says violence is the answer, when infact, it says the opposite. The Prophet(PBUH) said something like, an educated man is better to a community, than a highly religious one, or something along those lines.

You see, now those are the things people keep on forgetting to mention.

[boofhead]

Adnan one book contains direct exhortations to violence, killing infidels, intolerance, beheadings, enslaving etc. no matter what context revisionists believe they are in. The Koran is considered the direct communication from above is it not? All the hundreds of Hadiths etc that give the Koran 'context' are just recollection and opinion of mere mortals I believe, and more contradictory of each other than not. I have heard muslims quote different Hadith to answer the same question and the results are astonishingly variant. The words of Allah via the angel are the Koran, so one would assume that a dedicated believer would hold the Koran as more holy and sacred than any Hadith. And that is what terrorists do and that is what Islamic nations have done for 1400yrs.

Quotes of the Koran can rarely be corrected from within the body of the Koran itself. Opposing verses are direct contradictions.

The NT however does not need Hadiths or lifetimes of study to correct out of context quotes. The body of the Holy text gives the true context, and is not contradictory. The Koran is not self-contained: without volumes of writings (contradictory and written by scores of mere mortals) in size far greater than itself it does not make sense unless taken as a call to religious violence and intolerance.

To say that Islam is not the source of jihadist-terrorist violence is ridiculous. These pigs constantly quote the Koran. How can you say Islam is not the cause of this?

Just as an aside, my wife is Hindu and was always respectful of muslims until I gave her a copy of the Koran to read. She was interested. She got about 1/3rd of the way through and said "I feel sick like I want to vomit" and read no more. This was due to the violence and intolerance contained within. Do you believe she had the same reaction when she read the NT? Certainly not. This is a totally true story. And I do have respect for peaceful, god-loving muslims - I just believe they are wrong!

[Ó Cathasaigh]

yet...still a man.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

HG? Would anyone realy care if you did?