Units holding formation at all costs - This is getting ridiculous.

[Sandraker]

The idea that "disciplined" troops must hold their formation perfectly at all costs is stupid, and the results from this in battle are just extremely stupid.

Often they'll just stand in line perfectly, no matter the situation, rotating their formation to perfectly align with the enemy. This results in huge gaps in the battle line that are then easily exploited, and the individual units get themselves surrounded essentially automatically. To make things worse, when two "disiplined" units crash, one formation being wider than the other, the guys at the sides of the wide formation will REFUSE to perhaps try and flank the enemy unit. They just neatly stand in line, making the two clashing units dance about in a formation shaped like a very fat T.
Here's an incredibly, terribly, awfully crude MSpaint job to demonstrate my point: Red = "Disciplined" troops, Green = "undisciplined" troops.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Romans didn't fight in perfect line. They weren't even equipped for that. Why fight in a neat, lovely line when you're kitted for very close combat? If they just stand in formation and look pretty in battle they're extremely susceptible to longer reach weapons. They were trained to be flexible fighters capable of exploiting weaknesses in the enemy line, and that requires a far more fluid formation.


Man, it feels like CA took something good - Guard Mode - and tried to "fix" something that isn't broken by smashing it to pieces with a giant, metacritic powered hammer.

I mean what the hell, they got this thing right a decade ago. Why mess it up now?

[Jackal2233]

They just need to re-enable guard mode toggle and all will be well, but the problem is that they don't seem to be prioritising it at the moment which is really annoying. Why they removed it in the first place is beyond me

[DavidtheDuke]

I wouldn't mind if only certain units could use Guard mode, but itw orked fine then, as they didn't WALK INTO MEN and face units on axis. In beta patch 4 the formation-attack does work better, but it's still janky they still face away from enemy units too much along the battle line.

[Jofoblie]

This is a perfect example of what you're talking about:
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...A3BE0A55F4258/
Notice that massive gap in the middle of the screen? That wasn't there when the battle started, and no units have routed. Thankfully I had a unit in reserve to fill the gap, but in other battles I've not been so lucky. I've had all sorts run straight through the gap in my line and have them route my ranged units and flank my main line.

[Samer312]

Agreed all we need is guard mode back

This is a perfect example of what you're talking about:
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...A3BE0A55F4258/
Notice that massive gap in the middle of the screen? That wasn't there when the battle started, and no units have routed. Thankfully I had a unit in reserve to fill the gap, but in other battles I've not been so lucky. I've had all sorts run straight through the gap in my line and have them route my ranged units and flank my main line.

off topic but god this game looks like crap-so much for next gen graphics http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2012/...-preview-3.jpg

[Nippy]

i am not sure what CA are trying to do here with Formations - you form a battled line as soon as the two forces join into fight a couple of your units wheel around 180 degrees leaving big gaps-you have to walk your phalanxes into enemy units and as soon as this happens they dissolve and your men start running off into a melee bait ball -you try to re-select the unit of Hoplite phalanx that's walking off somewhere only for the stop/move button to be grayed out ??

You can't use a phalanx offensively because as soon as you give it orders to attack an enemy unit -it breaks into a loose bloody charge. If you try to walk it into the enemy you get what i described above where the phalanx engages the enemy but keeps on moving to the point that you initially were walking it to hence the stop or move button being grayed out until the phalanx reaches the point you original had ordered it to moved too (patch 4 beta) this did not happen in patch beta 3

[DavidtheDuke]

In control-G when taking a charge, formation-attack units should NEVER wheel to face their enemy. What patch changed this? I don't remember.

[Frost, colonel]

So far I've been lucky, as I have had my Legionaries turning in battle and thus leaving big gaps in my lines, but the AI has been to dumb to exploit these gaps.

[BigEl_nobody]

Seriously? First everyone complained about blobs, now it´s too much formation holding? I have no idea of programming, but I could imagine that it´s not that easy to make the perfect mixture of blob and formation...

I have the feeling that most of the times it works fine, I really enjoy that the units hold their formation that way, of course sometimes it´s a bit dumb when a thiner and longer formation overlaps a shorter and thicker one, but Blobs still develope at a certian time or when support comes in.

A bigger issue is that pike phalanx is still pretty buggy. Attacking something that is not in line with the phalanx can cause huge pathfinding bugs!

[craziii]

you can blame all the blob haters. they asked for this change.

this can all be solved by just including the guard mode button back why can't CA do that?

give the player the control on whether or not he wants his units to maintain formation or blob.

that is at least a significant complain gone regarding battles.

[alQamar]

you can blame all the blob haters. they asked for this change.

this can all be solved by just including the guard mode button back why can't CA do that?

give the player the control on whether or not he wants his units to maintain formation or blob.

that is at least a significant complain gone regarding battles.

Easy answer craziii. You need just to listen CA:

"the forum is a great source. But we have experienced game designers and they are paid to have own ideas."

Another one

"Guard mode is included in the game and no longer toggleable. The units do use guard mode automatically, unless you give them attack orders. There are some units where this is bugged."

The quotations are citations by word, but I can deliver them if needed.

[craziii]

@alqamar you don't need to. I also read that post by lusted. even if they are paid to have their own ideas, they can still suck. I hope he realize that.

[88HaZZarD88]

this "disciplined" troops formation "feature" was absolutely not necessary and it has been just time consuming .

It's simple , just give to the disciplined units the Guard ability back and no Guard ability for the others

[Naked Emperor]

I want guard mode for my missile units. I hate when I order them to shoot some unit and the unit breaks and runs and my missile unit runs after them straight into melee. Why was this omitted from the game? In previous games I could keep my archers in guard mode and fire at will, then when the unit I ordered them to fire at went out of range they would pick a new target.

[Yerevan]

I want guard mode for my missile units. I hate when I order them to shoot some unit and the unit breaks and runs and my missile unit runs after them straight into melee. Why was this omitted from the game? In previous games I could keep my archers in guard mode and fire at will, then when the unit I ordered them to fire at went out of range they would pick a new target.

I agree, I had some slingers/archers units that found themselves under heavy ennemy javelinmen fire just because the unit I had ask them to harass retreated behind its lines. Not quite logical to my opinion.

In patch3,the roman soldiers move so simple,I feel like Im playing ROME1

Now my units are acting like the robots from Rome 1.

Ok, now I'm lost. Don't take it personnaly guys but I would swear last time I came on this forum everybody was complaining R1 batttles were much better than R2 ! I don't know if CA really care about our complaints, or if there's any constructive way of cristisizing the game, but maybe, instantaneous inflamed debate is not always helping. Just saying.

[Glaumir]

Ok, now I'm lost. Don't take it personnaly guys but I would swear last time I came on this forum everybody was complaining R1 batttles were much better than R2 ! I don't know if CA really care about our complaints, or if there's any constructive way of cristisizing the game, but maybe, instantaneous inflamed debate is not always helping. Just saying.

I am not everyone. Like I said, I had no problem with the way unit collision worked in rome 2 before patch 3.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I think what the Romans did is to present a solid wall of large shields and let the enemy tire himself out by being as a impenetrable as possible, combine that with 1st ranks moving to the back after whistle, and you got yourself fresh troops fighting tired enemies = free win

They would stab with their swords everychance they would get as they pushed the enemy with the shield wall, but I doubt stabbing was their priority in battle, maintaining the solid shield wall and keep pushing should have been their priority, pretty much like hoplites.

Of course that rotation in axis that units do sometimes leads in those huge gaps in the battle line but that's an engine problem and the real guard mode being replaced by some kind of "automatic guard mode" which doesn't work in the same way it did 10 years ago

[Jackal2233]

the forum is a great source. But we have experienced game designers and they are paid to have own ideas."

So they are paid to remove a working guard mode function that has operated well in ALL previous total wars in an attempt to streamline the game, by removing player control, causing issues such as what is being described here, having players complain that their troops sit there after routing 1 unit while being showered by javelins, having players complain that their ranged units stupidly enter melee to fire at a routing enemy unit which was avoided by guard mode...

And then they bloat other stat-boosting special abilities like crazy... when all players want is guard mode back?
Seriously, WTF?!

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

To be honest removing the guard mode button makes the battles a little harder as far as micromanagement of units goes.

But that's about it, since the battles are way to easy anyway it doesn't matter...

[GnaReffotsirk]

I know where the problem begins here with formations:

1.Man one-on-one combat animations are not designed with units in mind. When you look at the animations and the dynamics of how each man considers, attacker, man to his side, man in front, and man to the rear, depth, etc. they are best suited for Shogun type battles, where each samurai picks his enemy and dance with him. If the units, say, the maniples, did do animations that consider each man is in a group of men in a unit, there will not be "leaking" or the such.

What happens is this: An enemy attacks with three combo strikes, the Legionnaire dances with him, stepping back. Once this occurs many times, you eventually find men out of place. But if the Maniple had been coded to behave as a maniple, stepping back as a unit, bending back to spring back again, curving to flank when ordered not to hold formation, things will be good.

We'd be seeing hoplites spending minutes stabbing at each other 2 meters apart. Dancing sideways a bit, forward, back.

Unit fighting techniques will occur, being set against each other. A Maniple will refuse to penetrate a wall of pikes unless told to force themselves. We'd see barbarians slash, hack, step back, but not cram themselves unless ordered, and as such, the maniple will step back, coordinated stabs at different rates, etc.

It will be beautiful.