Barbarian factions too weak?

[Speedo88]

Hey guys,

I was wondering what your oppinion is about the ''barbarian'' factions in RTW 2. I've played with the Romans and the Spartans and every battle went fine because the units in these factions have high morale and good overal strong points. But when playing with the Iceni every battle my units decide to rally because they have such a low morale. I don't use bad tactics and I don't have weak armies but the morale of the units is so low compared to Roman and Hellenic factions.

What do you guys think about other factions then Romans and Hellenic?

[Humble Warrior]

Hey guys,

I was wondering what your oppinion is about the ''barbarian'' factions in RTW 2. I've played with the Romans and the Spartans and every battle went fine because the units in these factions have high morale and good overal strong points. But when playing with the Iceni every battle my units decide to rally because they have such a low morale. I don't use bad tactics and I don't have weak armies but the morale of the units is so low compared to Roman and Hellenic factions.

What do you guys think about other factions then Romans and Hellenic?

I suppose if the internet existed 2000 years ago the Iceni would`ve posted this very comment.

To which someone with a tag called G. S. Paulinus would reply, "There`s a reason why we`re kicking barbarian butt!"

But I guess you don`t care about history.

[Uncle Jugashvili]

I suppose if the internet existed 2000 years ago the Iceni would`ve posted this very comment.

To which someone with a tag called G. S. Paulinus would reply, "There`s a reason why we`re kicking barbarian butt!"

But I guess you don`t care about history.

Does being defeated historically imply a deterministic inferiority? i.e., since the Romans historically defeated the Macedonians, should the Macedonians be portrayed as weak in-game, no matter what the player does? Should the Spartans weaker than the Thebans on account of their crushing defeat at Leuctra in 371 BC? Should the Romans be weaker than the Gauls on account of their defeat at Allia (390 BC), or weaker than the Germans due to their crushing defeat at Arausio (105 BC)? Et caetera, et caetera.

[Praetorian349]

I suppose if the internet existed 2000 years ago the Iceni would`ve posted this very comment.

To which someone with a tag called G. S. Paulinus would reply, "There`s a reason why we`re kicking barbarian butt!"

But I guess you don`t care about history.

HW, you have a good point and are very correct but you need to stop barbing your comments like that.

Act like that in real life and someone will break your nose. Try to be mature, even on the internet.

[priam11]

I suppose if the internet existed 2000 years ago the Iceni would`ve posted this very comment.

To which someone with a tag called G. S. Paulinus would reply, "There`s a reason why we`re kicking barbarian butt!"

But I guess you don`t care about history.

And CA does? They have said many times that their games are set in a history setting and that is it. They have said that ad nauseam.

Where have you been all this time?

[DeanE555]

You know,I think the same,the barbarians are suppoused to be fearless warriors aren't they? I know Germanic cultures praised fighting and thought that there is no greater death than to die in battle while doing heroic deeds and be accepted to Valhalla as a reward. Considering this facts I think they should have higher morale than the Roman/Hellenistic (sure the the barabaric units are usually cheaper than their Roman and Greek counterparts but this doesn't help you much if you fight a full army of Hoplites with a full army of spear/club levy...).Besides,weren't the Romans afraid of fighting the barbarians? Heck,Calligula made his men pick up seashells because they didn't want to sail to Britian.I'd suggest a tweak to balance this:lowering/increasing Roman/barbarian units' morale for a better balance (Roman/Greek units are better trained so they should keep their higher attack/defence but the barbaric men crave battle so they won't be broken so easily to boost their odds in a battle).This is of course my opinion,comment and correct me as you'd like! I'm not so sharp on the Roman era so I might just say bu****it and not know it.

[TheCenturion24]

No, I really don't think it's them. In fact, I've had the most fun playing the Averni, and single handily crushed Rome the same way I've crushed the barbarians AS Rome. It's like the AI gets mega morale penalties, it has zero ability to actually win anything.

[Jofoblie]

^To that I would like to add; do you value historical realism above entertaining well balanced gameplay?

Iceni is tricky very early on because of the abysmal moral, but as soon as you get warband infantry you'll fare better. Remember, Spear Levy and slingers are pretty much the lowest of the low.

[Speedo88]

^To that I would like to add; do you value historical realism above entertaining well balanced gameplay?

Iceni is tricky very early on because of the abysmal moral, but as soon as you get warband infantry you'll fare better. Remember, Spear Levy and slingers are pretty much the lowest of the low.

I know of the Spear Levy and Slingers to be weak so I stopped recruiting them early on. I have armies with scorpians, Warband spearman, sword band. But still they rally very soon in the battle.

I've used my ''better'' units against armies with Spearman Levy and slingers and still they rally after getting in full combat for a while. This problem never occurred with Roman and Spartan units even when I was outnumbered. And like DeanE555 said, these people were warriors born to fight battles and would have died to get in valhalla.

I think the morale should be upped with at least 10 points for the better quality units.

[VINC.XXIII]

Playing as Etruscan, I'm surrounded of Veneti, Ligurian, Illyrians, Volcae, and Iberians who have each 2 full stacks armies. I have to be very smart in diplomacy to not be at war with all of them.

I don't think they're so weaks, at contrary, the Land army naval ability to transport themselves make the game way favorable to barbarians. (Iberians comes in Sicilia, WTF)
Moreover, any savage can burn my super expensive bronze gates with these crazy torches that C.A gratified us.

so "civilized" peoples with their advanced warfleets and walls can't handle all the barbarians of map.

I don't care really about moral of the troops, its not essential beside the points I've mentionned above. By the way, my armies are mostly composed of javelineers. I haven't Legions, manipules, HBO legionnaries and soon...

[krisslanza]

This is because the Barbarians actually start with "Levy" troops. Factions like Rome and Sparta, start with something more akin to a "tier" 1.5 or 2 troop. Basically, most factions start with a militia/levy style troop that has low-ish morale, where as Rome does not. This gives Rome in particular, a huge early game advantage as their basic infantry is just better then everyone else's basic infantry pretty much.

Once you get Warbands and above though, it's about equal.

[Uncle Jugashvili]

(Iberians comes in Sicilia, WTF)

Unlikely, but not impossible. After all, some Celts went all the way to Galatia (Anatolia) following their invasion of the Balkans.

any savage

Oh wow. So any non-Greek/Roman Iron Age culture is made up of "savages"? Where do we draw the line? Keep in mind that, for instance, during the 2nd century, when the Romans, an expansionistic military power conquered Greece manu militari, its cultural prestige was nowhere near that of the Greeks. In fact, these invaders were regarded as barbarians; in Polybius' histories, at least three historical figures (Agelaus, Lyciscus and a Greek ambassador call the Romans "barbarians", for example:

Polybius, Histories, 11.5:

This is the story your treaty with the Romans tells [...] Did you capture a city yourselves not to allow yourselves to outrage freemen or to burn their towns, which you regard as a cruel proceeding and barbarous; but have made a treaty by which you have given up to the barbarians the rest of the Greeks to be exposed to atrocious outrage and violence.

Plautus, the Roman playwright, was also aware of the Romans' ambiguous status in Greek eyes; from Trinummus, Scene 0:

Huic Graece nomen est Thensauro fabulae:
Philemo scripsit, Plautus vertit barbare,
nomen Trinummo fecit, nunc hoc vos rogat
ut liceat possidere hanc nomen fabulam.

Translation:

The name of this play in Greek is Thensauro [The Treasure]:
Philemon wrote it, Plautus translated it into barbarous language [Latin],
He gave it the name of Trinummus [Three pieces of money]
and begs of you that the play may keep this name.

On the other hand, you should read up on what Cato the Elder thought about Greeks and Greek culture. He detested Greek intellectuals, manners, litterature, poetry and art, and he even opposed Greek medicine -- he claimed it "poisoned" Romans. He had Greek philosophers deported from Rome, he refused to let his children learn Greek and he felt that Socrates was a worthless babbler who had been justly put to death.

From Plutarch, Lives, Cato the Elder, 23:

He says, for instance, that Socrates was a mighty prattler, who attempted, as best he could, to be his country's tyrant, by abolishing its customs, and by enticing their fellow citizens into opinions contrary to the laws. He made fun of the school of Isocrates, declaring that his pupils kept on studying with him till they were old men, as if they were to practice their arts and plead their cases before Minos in Hades. And seeking to prejudice his son against Greek culture, he indulges in an utterance all too rash for his years, declaring, in the tone of a prophet or seer, that Rome would lose her empire when she had become infected with Greek letters.

Everyone is a "barbarian" to someone...

[VINC.XXIII]

Unlikely, but not impossible. After all, some Celts went all the way to Galatia (Anatolia) following their invasion of the Balkans.

I means all Iberian and southern gallic factions comes to Sicilia and Sardinia, there is a difference between One people emigrating in Asia Minor and all iberian sticking around Sicilia because A.I behavior's codes don't fit to historical parameters.

I don't care about your quotes of Cato, I've reads Origines and De Agri Cultura. Its just don't answer nor solve the C.A bad, bad choices of gameplay. So keep your quotes for yourself.

[SirRobin]

But when playing with the Iceni every battle my units decide to rally because they have such a low morale.

Not to be that guy, but when your troops "rally", it means they stop fleeing

[Slipz]

No they got the best by far non-pike melee infantry.

[craziii]

thought the whole point of Tw games is so we can change history

and the barb factions aren't weak. they got some of the best units in game. carthage is actually very weak. their best sword unit is libyan infantry, and damn, are they weak compare to comparable units from other factions. cartahge needs some love from CA like the egyptian received.

[acgabs]

Having a warrior culture, being aggressive and being able to fight a disciplined army in a pitched battle are very different things. I've only played the Arverni so far, but even then I don't want to slog it out infantry vs. infantry with rome, why would I, it's their specialty. I have insane light and heavy cavalry and very good mobility, different factions have a different focus.

[rrgg]

Barbarians are probably much worse if you're using the beta now that the javelin throw isn't working.

My tips are

A. recruit better units
B. try to have moral-boosting units in your armies (Wodanaz Spears, etc.)
C. Never fight defensively, barbarian units tend to get ridiculous charge bonuses.

[Doe3000]

Iceni is tricky very early on because of the abysmal moral, but as soon as you get warband infantry you'll fare better. Remember, Spear Levy and slingers are pretty much the lowest of the low.

It's true, they do have incredibly low morale. I've had some Briton troops rout even when I've already won the battle and the enemy are in full retreat. With that in mind those Gaulish nobles ( I forget the unit name) are incredibly tough. I once fought almost an entire army of Iceni warriors and cavalrymen against one unit of Arverni Nobles and those guys just chewed right through them.

[jimlawl]

I almost got Veni Vidi Vici on Legendary as the Iceni, but was too lazy to complete the campaign. Got Britain+Ireland by turn 3, all of Gaul+Belgium+Holland by turn 8, invaded Italy, Germany and Iberia at the same time, camped Civil War, etc. Trick is to use op slingers, they destroy everything.