Family Trees and why we need them

[Viva Espana!]

So, I've been playing Rome 2 for a while, and I've finally realized why I despise it. It's not the bugs or the glitches or the crash here and there. Other games have them. Skyrim had them and I loved it! It's not even how stupid the AI is or that most of my battles involve me fighting their garrisons while their real armies wander off or try to circumnavigate me -- all I need is a proper civil war and I'm fighting huge, insurmountable forces.

No, it's the same problem I had with Empire and Shogun -- the family tree is gone and the generals no longer feel like characters in their own right. While playing Rome and Medieval, long family trees developed, and I could take revenge on factions for the death of one character's father, or else see a line of my family get devoted to administration or glorious conquest. In fact, the amount of random traits/retinue that characters could pick up made them feel alive, as if they were their own beings and I was some godlike being that only possessed them in battle, but otherwise, they were actual people. And the traits they randomly picked up in those long lists informed how I play them and vice-versa. My crazy, Roman Tribune that drowned spiders in vinegar and talked to his horse regularly exterminated the enemy and sent his troops to their deaths. The family trees and the many random traits, as well as traits that were dependent on what you did (as opposed to a skill tree you could pick from) allowed for greater stories.

With a limit of three traits, one retinue, and skills that you pick... I don't feel the same attachment to my generals. I just pick up yet another random shmuck and train him. It's just another unit. And this has made me hate Rome II.

So, as such, do you think it will be possible, given the limits of the UI, to mod family trees and randomized traits/skills back into the game?

[Humble Warrior]

So, I've been playing Rome 2 for a while, and I've finally realized why I despise it. It's not the bugs or the glitches or the crash here and there. Other games have them. Skyrim had them and I loved it! It's not even how stupid the AI is or that most of my battles involve me fighting their garrisons while their real armies wander off or try to circumnavigate me -- all I need is a proper civil war and I'm fighting huge, insurmountable forces.

No, it's the same problem I had with Empire and Shogun -- the family tree is gone and the generals no longer feel like characters in their own right. While playing Rome and Medieval, long family trees developed, and I could take revenge on factions for the death of one character's father, or else see a line of my family get devoted to administration or glorious conquest. In fact, the amount of random traits/retinue that characters could pick up made them feel alive, as if they were their own beings and I was some godlike being that only possessed them in battle, but otherwise, they were actual people. And the traits they randomly picked up in those long lists informed how I play them and vice-versa. My crazy, Roman Tribune that drowned spiders in vinegar and talked to his horse regularly exterminated the enemy and sent his troops to their deaths. The family trees and the many random traits, as well as traits that were dependent on what you did (as opposed to a skill tree you could pick from) allowed for greater stories.

With a limit of three traits, one retinue, and skills that you pick... I don't feel the same attachment to my generals. I just pick up yet another random shmuck and train him. It's just another unit. And this has made me hate Rome II.

So, as such, do you think it will be possible, given the limits of the UI, to mod family trees and randomized traits/skills back into the game?

Patched - never.

As a paid DLC, perhaps.

[super_newbie_pro]

Patched - never.

As a paid DLC, perhaps.

:/

[Kraut]

As a paid DLC, perhaps.

You think they would dare to...?

[wozzar]

You think they would dare to...?

Firaxis did when they brought back Religion into the G&K expansion of CIV5. Religion should have never been taken out of the game and there was a big uproar about it. So they put it back into the game but you had to pay for it which you should have never have paid for anyway. Firaxis was double dipping and i predict CA will do the same.

[nilloc93]

ALL OF THEM (skill tree instead of none for that option)
DLC?? Only if all of those features are in it. If not CA can bloody well add them in 1 patch at a time since they should have been in the game in the first place.
I mean really Rome TW that came out 9 damn years ago had more stuff in it than this.

[Holger Danske]

You think they would dare to...?

Why not, they pretty much sold the game on hot air anyway...

[Yerevan]

Totally agree with OP, family trees was number one immersion factor. With this feature imagination had a grip on the game and suspension of disbelief could easily correct all the little incoherences an unperfect game system usually brings. Without this little help to the imagination all R2 flaws are difficult to bypass.

And... So long for all the amazing AAR I could read on this forum. But maybe this is not the Rome TW Sega wanted to see anymore. I realised on the official forum that more and more TW players favour the multi player over campaign and play this game to destroy human players on the battlefield (this is not a critic : i played multi a bit with S2 and I must say it's cool).

[Humble Warrior]

You think they would dare to...?

They did it with blood. Little did we know as we asked over and over again for simple blood sprites patch in STW2 on the forums, that they would take advantage of this to CHARGE us for it. Notice how not many people are asking for blood for RTW2 this time round? It`s because we know CA will probably charge us for it.

If they can charge for blood, then how much more will they charge for a Family pack DLC?

Only way I see it happening as part of a `wonderful` DLC.

[emperor77]

That's the thing. Bugs get fixed, bad design decisions usually don't - and Rome 2 is full of those.

[Arimahn]

That's the thing. Bugs get fixed, bad design decisions usually don't - and Rome 2 is full of those.

Mark this man's words. Mark them well. This is a second Empire, where CA will just bail out entirely and make a "new" game out of the old framework eventually.

On topic though: I don't really need a family tree, personally. Not with 1YPT anyway since my generals won't last long enough to form any kind of personal connection. And even if they did, 2 character traits maximum and a boring skill system will do their part. What I'd like to see is a simple mod that makes fresh characters have proper family names, so we don't see Caesar among the Junia anymore.

[Viva Espana!]

That's why I specifically said 'mod.' Think it's possible, given what we have, to mod it? Or is it just not amenable to such futsing around?

[TestudoAubreii]

I don't know for certain, but I am going to say no. Well, at least not a family tree that we were used to in the first Rome.

[Americanus Supremus]

All the dynamics are there in the DB files, but being able to turn it on and have it show up in game is another matter. I can poke around the db files and stuff like that but actually turning the family tree is well above my knowledge level. I hope it can be added as it adds a HUGE immersion factor as the OP states. But I agree with Humble Warrior, it wont be patched in. If anything it will be sold as DLC. Which will only make me wonder if it was deliberately ripped out in order to make more money on DLC sales, ala the Greek Cities DLC... Still cant believe the freaking Greek Cities aren't INCLUDED in the game out of the box... Total War series turning into Total

[Viva Espana!]

Well, , I almost don't want to play any more until I get that immersion back. I hope they don't strip it out of Medieval III. How do we make big enough of a fuss that they include it in the next one?

[klaytonix]

Time for Crusader Kings 2

[Toho]

my family keeps dying off and "marriage" in the political screen doesn't do .
I married to some other family but both of my generals were still single.

[Toho]

my family keeps dying off and "marriage" in the political screen doesn't do .
I married to some other family but both of my generals were still single.

[Tredlador]

You're so right about what disappoints the most about the this game, it really isn't the bugs - it's the missing features. that made the game.

So true re: narratives for having a family tree. One could write a fictional story, an alternate version of an empire with Rome and Medieval, and Shogun, too, and it could be a good read from the right hand.

It's unfathomable why they omit excellent, game-defining features, some simple (titles), some not so simple (family tree) and some that we never really saw but that could have made use of both (political office).

The family tree- it's just gone, I would say, as something from CA, modding aside. It would make the weirdest DLC, and would attract quite a bit of loathing if not a free DLC and the only save would be like: "Oh, okay, we have that "mostly" developed, and since you're all quite annoyed, here it is, Ah, sorry... We won't mess with traditional features again which have defined the series since the beginning. Thank you for supporting us since 2000."

In my eyes, and in many others' too, that might win them back some respect, even though, considering the revelations in detail re business practice, I r feeling sorry for CA (if indeed this game's failure has come down to hacking out features to satisfy SEGA as a business, which it is). However, a sensible recollection of what players loved, it's inclusion and thereby showing some gratitude is totally in order. Sure they work hard, but they don't get to where they are today, without years of support from paying customers, and truly loyal fans.

Where did offices and titles go? And "cause and effect" traits, y'know? I mean BEEP me gently.

Titles in MTW were so cool, and easy to alter too, then they took it out in M2TW, you know, the little scroll that appeared when you took a new region or when a general died that previously held the title? And also in M2TW it was less apparent how generals got their traits. The Holy Roman Empire had no "family" tree as such, but the generals were the aristocracy of the faction, those bred for power, rather than as in ROME where you had fathers, sons, brothers and cousins leading the way. That worked for HRE, you know, a smart, simple approach and we had a believable FTree for HRE, (which has a very weird history, almost like a united nations, rather than an emergent or established royal dynasty).

Things like developing a character's "dread" or "acumen" were way cool and seemed dead-simple(?) features, and it's this sort of thing that they neglect to add to each game, or change so much you don't recognise it, or it's so far changed it's effectively gone. A cool thing pops up in one game, then it's gone in the next release, when there's really no reason, and it bothers me that they don't re-dress some things that may not fit a particular historical period, but which, if tweaked, add that game-play we damn-well loved about the game.

I never, ever "got this" about the series. I wished they realised what we liked, and kept some consistency, and even created menu toggles for those that don't like that sort of thing, so they can turn it off. Business is business, but smarts are bucks and happy gamers. And a future.

[g0pher_11]

To be fair, the character traits in M2 were often contradictory. While the plusses and minuses all worked out to adjust a person's traits to a given level mathematically, the game's otherwise excellent immersion factor was ever so slightly tarnished by the fact that your general could be a righteous tea-totling unscrupulous boozer with a wretched wife that everyone adores, and is a womanizer who prefers boys and fathers countless children through his faithful relationship with the aforementioned three-headed charmer. But traits could be a marvellous thing if managed just a bit more thoughtfully.