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Thread: Alii Colores Romae: Totus - pack of different uniform colours now covering the Rise of the Republic scenario!!

  1. #81
    Dude with the Food's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Lusted View Post
    Code:
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                </SLOT>
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    </VARIANT_MESH>
    Here you can see where models are referenced along with the models that are used to construct the imposters. Important note: please only use the existing modles that are specified for imposters, adding in different ones will affect the amount of texture memory used for imposters and could affect the quality of them.

    You can see that there are multiple of the same entry in this file, this is to set the variety in a unit, generally it set so 60% of a reference use the primary colour, 20% the secondary colour and 20% the tertiary colour. The last two are set via the
    Code:
    mask1="2"  mask2="1"
    you can see. Unlike in Shogun 2 where the colour masks used by a part were set by the textures now it is specified in the definition. This allows for a lot more flexibility and reduces the amount of textures needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by playker View Post
    you have to add mask at the end of the line, for example:
    <VARIANT_MESH model="VariantMeshes/_VariantModels/man/cloak/celtic_chieftain_cloak/celtic_chieftain_cloak_armour.rigid_model_v2" imposter_model="VariantMeshes/_VariantModels/man/cloak/celtic_cloak/celtic_cloak_1.rigid_model_v2" mask1="1" mask0="0" />
    mask 1 is for the 1st faction colour, mask 0 for the 2nd and mask 2 for the 3rd, I think. At least mask 1 is for the first colour, I'm not sure about the other 2


    @Bullgod - This might help you understand and if it doesn't you'll need to give them whatever cloaks the Praetorians use.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am me. You are not me. You are you. If I was you, I wouldn't be me.
    If you were me, I'd be sad.But I wouldn't then be me because you'd be me so you wouldn't be me because I wasn't me because you were me but you couldn't be because I'd be a different me. I'd rather be any kind of bird (apart from a goose) than be you because to be you I'd have to not be me which I couldn't do unless someone else was me but then they would be you aswell so there would still be no me. They would be you because I was you so to restore balance you would have to be me and them meaning all three of us would become one continously the same. That would be very bad.


  2. #82
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by BullGod View Post
    Hi Demokritos,
    I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed your mod for Shogun a lot. And you probably know I've used it. Colours are quite important to me and if not for your mod, I would have to make them for Shogun myself. Your mod saved me a lot of work, since all your choices were perfect and once I've installed it, a thought of changing anything in that regard never crossed my mind again.
    Glad to hear ACC has been to your satisfaction, BullGod, and I appreciate you taking the time to let me know that. Feedback like that is the only pay one gets for the long hours of work.

    But you haven't seen the final edition of ACC yet. I was working on that when I felt a need to switch to Rome 2 before this game becomes patched up properly. ACC 59i would offer a number of improvements over previous editions, a "closure" for me in that area of the game. When you see it, you may agree with me that some change was called for.

    Quote Originally Posted by BullGod View Post
    So, I'm glad you're working on Rome2. I hope you'll be able to mod as many factions as possible
    Rome 2 is a greater modding challenge than Shogun 2 in more ways than one. I've written somewhere that my current plan is to recolour all playable factions and three dozen others. We'll see if CA have made such a poor job with the rest that I feel forced to take on them, too. But the amount of work needed to do so is a real deterrent. At least in a short time span.

    Quote Originally Posted by BullGod View Post
    I have one comment on Vigiles.
    I like the color, but I wonder if it's possible to restrict cape color to only one? My reasoning is that since cape was certainly issued by the state, they were all dyed the same most likely. (Is it at all possible to control what color is applied and to what uniform part without retexturing? I know there are some changes in that department since Shogun2, but I don't know how far it goes).
    I have believed that there must be a text file for Rome 2 somewhere where the variety in colour application pattern on the units is scripted. From what I can gather by Dude with the Food's helpful post above, it may have been found now. But I'm not into that sort of modding yet. So, for the time being, I must follow the script. Which in the case of the Vigiles says, by the looks of it, "Primary and tertiary colours on clothing, shields, and capes, secondary only on capes"...

    Edit: Damn, can't believe I missed it, didn't look closely enough; that script says "Primary on clothing and shields, secondary only on capes, tertiary on clothing, shields, and capes". So it's possible to get the capes in one colour...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Sorry for giving the wrong impression before, BullGod.

    Alright then, I'll use that theme for the Vigiles in LE. I can work on improvements later. Just like ACC, the content of ACR2 is bound to change a number of times along the editional road.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 11, 2013 at 01:59 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  3. #83
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Recoloured Romans Progress Report:

    I'm pretty convinced now that I won't be able to attain the same level of quality on the whole for the Romans as for the other factions. That severe shading the former are subjected to is too destructive for the colours of many units. The "Roman colours" I'm looking for don't have that faded greyish tint. And it certainly rules out the possibility of getting shields generally in brighter shades than the uniforms, as the sources indicate were often the case for the Roman army in the Imperial period. Unless it's possible to edit that colour application pattern script for the individual unit (and provided I find the energy to plunge into that modding field, too).

    Best chance for acceptable results is given to the units of the Republican army, Auxiliaries, and Socii. Examples based on my sources follow...

    Velites...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Chose between red and reddish brown for second colour in clothing, and picked the latter for variety.

    Hastati from the front...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Find that secondary colour for brownish shield acceptable now.

    Triarii...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    These came out OK because only a few of the soldiers have strong shading applied to them, and this apparently of a weaker sort than that for the legionaries. Will work more on the red tone in clothing and secondary colour for shields in RE.

    Auxiliary Syrian Archers...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No problem with these.

    As examples of the more problematic units due to severe shading...

    Principes...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Not quite happy with the red tone for them.

    Legionaries...
    Got nothing worth showing so far...

    Armoured legionaries...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    According to my sources, these soldiers could be close to orange in clothing and even brighter orange or red in shields. But I always find them looking too faded in game, and sometimes too strongly orange in certain light conditions. Quite frustrating.

    BTW, is the crest on the helmet for the armoured legionary officer supposed to have that pinky tone (which radiates like a neon light at times)? Don't like it at all.


    Anyways, that's the situation on the ACR2 front ATM.

    Comments are welcome.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 13, 2013 at 08:12 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  4. #84

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    I hope your romans variety will work with pdguru mods and aswel as kazeil romans mod too?

  5. #85

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    This reconstruction of armor is more appropriate for the Scythians. Massagetae were similar swords and quivers.




    Here typical of nomad tribes living east of the Caspian Sea to western China
    (massagetae, paradraya, haumavargа, parasugdam)

  6. #86
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazeyshot View Post
    I hope your romans variety will work with pdguru mods and aswel as kazeil romans mod too?
    Don't know about compability with other mods yet, Hazey. Don't know much about other mods at all, which is necessary to tell for sure how they cope with ACR2. But as long as those other mods don't mess with faction_uniform_colours or unit_variants_colours tables, they should be fine in combination with ACR2.


    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    This reconstruction of armor is more appropriate for the Scythians. Massagetae were similar swords and quivers.

    Are you saying the Scythians should look like portrayed in the above illustration? I've used it for the Massagetae, as I found it in an article about the Massagetae, the pic allegedly showing their Queen Tomiris. You have proof of this being erroneous?

    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    Here typical of nomad tribes living east of the Caspian Sea to western China
    (massagetae, paradraya, haumavargа, parasugdam)
    The same pic has been said to depict a Parthian. Here's another image said to illustrate the Battle of Carrhae where the Romans were beaten by the Parthians...



    As you can see, the warriors seen here look very similar to the image you posted, and which I also posted on page 2 of this thread. You say they do not depict Parthians?

    Well, theoretically, they can depict Parthians, but erroneously, of course. Still, I have several illustrations of "Parthians", and those above look very similar to them. But colours vary a lot.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 13, 2013 at 12:34 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  7. #87

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    I am an archaeologist from Kazakhstan, more than 10 years i have excavation of burials of Massagetae, Wusuns, Sarmatians. If you look at the realities of written sources, best described geradot.

    If you want I can send more articles? ...but in Russian. Or pictures of archaeological material if you're interested! In ROME 2 I dont like number of shields at Massagetae and armor, and metal armor... I have not seen one in the excavations. Good visual modification of saka nomads was in EB mod.
    Massagetae- nomads of the steppes, they have never been able to do normal metal armor.
    As for the Parthians and Bacteria ... massagetae repeatedly included in their army greatest empires


    p.s.: sorry for bad english

  8. #88

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    I just mean - Massagetae in the army of Parthia and Bactria is normal, but the Scythians in the army Massagetae - it's not so true!

  9. #89

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    In these your two pictures- clothing colors best suited to Massagets. And a rare find clothes of red color (but it's closer to the Altai)

  10. #90
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    I am an archaeologist from Kazakhstan, more than 10 years i have excavation of burials of Massagetae, Wusuns, Sarmatians. If you look at the realities of written sources, best described geradot.

    If you want I can send more articles? ...but in Russian. Or pictures of archaeological material if you're interested! In ROME 2 I dont like number of shields at Massagetae and armor, and metal armor... I have not seen one in the excavations. Good visual modification of saka nomads was in EB mod.
    Massagetae- nomads of the steppes, they have never been able to do normal metal armor.
    As for the Parthians and Bacteria ... massagetae repeatedly included in their army greatest empires


    p.s.: sorry for bad english
    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    I just mean - Massagetae in the army of Parthia and Bactria is normal, but the Scythians in the army Massagetae - it's not so true!
    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    In these your two pictures- clothing colors best suited to Massagets. And a rare find clothes of red color (but it's closer to the Altai)
    You're an archaeologist from Kazakhstan? Well, that sounds like someone I should listen to!

    What do you mean by "If you look at the realities of written sources, best described geradot."? I've studied history at university, so I know not to trust historical sources without a large dose of criticism, but for this game, I had nothing else to go on. So it had to do until something better came along.

    I was under the impression that the Massagetae originated from the Scythians, and shared many customs with them. I've read that a coalition of Massagetae and the Saka defeated Cyrus the Great of Persia. And the Saka are given as a Scythian tribe. So what does that mean for "Scythians" among the Massagetae?

    Anyway, Herodotus is said to describe the latter like this:

    "In their dress and mode of living the Massagetae resemble the Scythians. They fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them: they use bows and lances, but their favourite weapon is the battle-axe. Their arms are all either of gold or brass. For their spear-points, and arrow-heads, and for their battle-axes, they make use of brass; for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold. So too with the caparison of their horses, they give them breastplates of brass, but employ gold about the reins, the bit, and the cheek-plates. They use neither iron nor silver, having none in their country; but they have brass and gold in abundance."

    For my mod, I'm just trying to resemble the Massagetae, Scythians, Parthians etc in traditional colours for clothing. You have more reliable and exact description of what colours they used?
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  11. #91

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Massagets genetically closer to Bactria. Scythian people, like a way of life (in even earlier times.) About the color of clothing Massagetae, mostly beige color. Why? Becouse its not colored flax.))
    About history... we are have a saying: The History it is a political prostitute! )))
    And ...аrchaeology is the science is not about truth, it's about facts))

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    In these your two pictures- clothing colors best suited to Massagets. And a rare find clothes of red color (but it's closer to the Altai)
    So the last two pics in post #86, which are said to portray "Parthians", show colours more typical for the Massagetae? Maybe because the Parthians employed the services of some Massagetae, like in the war against Rome?

    I did notice in my illustrations for "Parthians" that many of them wear clothes or decorations in blue. So I had planned to make blue their main colour in the Regular Edition of ACR2 later. But if I am to move my current theme for the Parthians to the Massagetae instead, I should perhaps do it as soon as possible, so as to avoid possible grown colour association and confusion later. "Sigh". This would mean a lot of more work for the Light Edition, as I'd have to re-do the whole Parthian roster...

    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    Massagets genetically closer to Bactria. Scythian people, like a way of life (in even earlier times.)
    But if the Massagetae shared some customs with the Scythians, then chances are that they could pass in appearance as "Scythians" at times - like in the above illustration I found in the article about the Massagetae.

    BTW, I got the impression that the black and white drawing you provided was supposed to depict Massagetae, but it's labelled "Sakaian soldiers of Xerxes army" - i.e. not necessarily Massagetae. Care to explain?


    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    About the color of clothing Massagetae, mostly beige color. Why? Becouse its not colored flax.))
    Don't understand what you mean here. If the clothing of the Massagetae is not "coloured flax", why does it have to be "mostly beige"?


    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    About history... we are have a saying: The History it is a political prostitute! )))
    And ...аrchaeology is the science is not about truth, it's about facts))
    Well, to be precise, if you ask the philosopher in myself (the real me), if the "fact" is not true, then it's not a fact. But yes, historical sources tend to reflect (i.e. be coloured by) the political and cultural conceptions and needs of the place and time which created the source in question, and this varied a lot over time. So in order to distill the "truth" out of historical sources, the historian needs to be familiar with those conceptions and needs, and rinse those out of the "equation", so to speak. Knowing the archaeological facts is a great help in this endeavour.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 14, 2013 at 07:29 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  13. #93

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Сейчас ты прав как никогда! Про Парфию ничего сказать не могу!

  14. #94

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Now you're right as ever! About Parthia i can not to say anything!

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by xeofox View Post
    Now you're right as ever! About Parthia i can not to say anything!
    Well, you've convinced me that those illustrations allegedly showing "Parthians", which I have used as a base for the Parthian colour theme, most likely depict some Saka Tigrakhauda warriors in the service of the Parthians instead. Consistent with this is this stone relief found in Persepolis...



    ...showing Saka Tigrakhauda - the "Sakas of Pointed Caps" - and these Sakas (proper) believed by Herodotus, Strabo and others as the same as the Massagetae. The other sources I have for "Parthians" show warriors with similar hats, but never pointed.

    Therefore: current colour theme for the Parthians discarded. New needs to be found.

    But I will wait before using the old Parthian theme for the Massagetae instead. The game may feature sub-groups of the Saka Tigrakhauda that could use that theme better. So I need to check the list of factions featured in Rome 2 first.


    BTW guys, I'd like to hear your opinions about the use of blue-clothed Roman legionaries, as suggested by this illustration...



    The question is, if we use that theme, what type of unit should it be? For Armoured Legionaries, I had in mind red-clothed soldiers. But what about for other units, like the Legionary Cohort? Eagle Cohort? Evocati Cohort?

    Here's an evening shot of a dev version of the theme for the latter unit...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Could be a very cool addition to the Roman army (after more work on the blue hue). The Evocati should perhaps be more of a mix in colours as they were veterans of old units brought together in times of need.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 14, 2013 at 05:38 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  16. #96

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    http://iranpoliticsclub.net/photos/U...ian1/index.htm

    If you haven't found this site already, here is a huge compilation of sources for Parthian military clothing and armour. Seems early and low level foot units weren't that different to the colour scheme you already used, maybe a bit more brown, but any mounted units (mercenaries excluded) had dyed clothing, usually a mix of light blue and beige for low level horse archers, but there is some green in there. Red seems to be a colour used exclusively for elite or royal units. Not sure where CA got their bright purple inspiration from.

    Yes, I am very keen on the Parthian Faction. I can't seem to bring myself to play as anyone else until I complete a Parthian Campaign.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    Well, you've convinced me that those illustrations allegedly showing "Parthians", which I have used as a base for the Parthian colour theme, most likely depict some Saka Tigrakhauda warriors in the service of the Parthians instead. Consistent with this is this stone relief found in Persepolis...



    ...showing Saka Tigrakhauda - the "Sakas of Pointed Caps" - and these Sakas (proper) believed by Herodotus, Strabo and others as the same as the Massagetae. The other sources I have for "Parthians" show warriors with similar hats, but never pointed.

    Therefore: current colour theme for the Parthians discarded. New needs to be found.

    But I will wait before using the old Parthian theme for the Massagetae instead. The game may feature sub-groups of the Saka Tigrakhauda that could use that theme better. So I need to check the list of factions featured in Rome 2 first.


    BTW guys, I'd like to hear your opinions about the use of blue-clothed Roman legionaries, as suggested by this illustration...



    The question is, if we use that theme, what type of unit should it be? For Armoured Legionaries, I had in mind red-clothed soldiers. But what about for other units, like the Legionary Cohort? Eagle Cohort? Evocati Cohort?

    Here's an evening shot of a dev version of the theme for the latter unit...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Could be a very cool addition to the Roman army (after more work on the blue hue). The Evocati should perhaps be more of a mix in colours as they were veterans of old units brought together in times of need.







    OH DEMO! stop teasing me with pictures! i want your MOD!

  18. #98

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Pictures ( finally..bigger!)


  19. #99
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    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemianRomantic View Post
    http://iranpoliticsclub.net/photos/U...ian1/index.htm

    If you haven't found this site already, here is a huge compilation of sources for Parthian military clothing and armour. Seems early and low level foot units weren't that different to the colour scheme you already used, maybe a bit more brown, but any mounted units (mercenaries excluded) had dyed clothing, usually a mix of light blue and beige for low level horse archers, but there is some green in there. Red seems to be a colour used exclusively for elite or royal units. Not sure where CA got their bright purple inspiration from.

    Yes, I am very keen on the Parthian Faction. I can't seem to bring myself to play as anyone else until I complete a Parthian Campaign.
    That is by far the best source for how the Parthians looked like that I've seen. Didn't know about it, although I've picked up some of its illustrations elsewhere. Thank you very much for that link, BR. Now I'm ready for the Parthians!


    Still haven't found a better Alternative for your Parthian campaign? If not, well, then I'll try my best to make ACR2 worth your wait...


    Quote Originally Posted by Hazeyshot View Post
    OH DEMO! stop teasing me with pictures! i want your MOD!
    Haha, ACR2 is getting hotter, is it? I think I'll use that blue theme for the Legionary Cohort. Already got a good theme for the Eagle Cohort, and the Evocati should perhaps be a mix of colours. Maybe the Roman army will come out pretty good in ACR2 after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hazeyshot View Post
    Pictures ( finally..bigger!)

    Yesss - bigger! Much easier to look at. And first one a given in TWC's Pic of the Week competition, my friend. Just saying...

    What mod are you using here?

    Thanks again for the show.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  20. #100

    Default Re: Alternative Colours For Rome 2

    I can't remember the source, but I've red somewhere that as there is no proof of Roman legionaries wearing red tunics, or even that their tunics were uniformly died, there are some things historians are quite sure about, and that is that black was associated with death (not very surprising) white was a color considered fancy, off white was standard "color" good for commoners (soldiers and civilians), red was color of the gods, especially Mars, and blue was associated with sea, therefore was used by marines. Other colors were considered "feminine".
    That's just a thought, something I remembered.
    Last edited by BullGod; November 15, 2013 at 10:28 AM.

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