Ars Gratia Artis - Complete Battle Overhaul, v2.7.2 - Patch 7 ready (updated 15/11/13)

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

do you have the fire at will for javelins in this mod if not can you some day make it in this mod he shows how to do it on his topic and maybe you can do it only for some units not all just a idea

[Selea]

do you have the fire at will for javelins in this mod if not can you some day make it in this mod he shows how to do it on his topic and maybe you can do it only for some units not all just a idea

I thought about adding fire at will to missile javelin units but in the previous version I didn't do it because it was too cheap given the too much ammo. However now with all the changes to Javelins (and especially the fact that only certain selected melee unit factions now carry javelins and the much reduced ammo capability) maybe it's the time to put the change in.

So it is much probable I will add a fire-at-will possibility for javelin missile units in the near future; as for mods that enable it, sadly no they aren't compatible because you need to change the table that has all unit stats (that is the principal table of all battle mods).

[Ismar]

Thanks Selea

I use indeed the patch 3 maybe this is the problem but anyhow i thank you for making this game playable again and with your mod on BAI its just a different much more realistic playing experience
I will try out the new update and report back as soon possible and i recommend this Mod to all players don't just mess with so many mods all together stick to some of them not to All of them out there
thats my opinion.

Selea i just read some where do i have to use mod manager from now on because you made it a mod pack or can i just rename it to movie pack?? or you loaded both versions from now on its just a mess with so many requests and ppl ask can you do this or that just stick to your liking. And as i understand there is a lot of work and pressure on you because of the ppl wanting things in a minute i have only respect for your hard work thx

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

Do you guys know there is a update for patch 4. dont know if it gives problems with your mod Selea

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ve-Now/page72?

[Ismar]

and thx for the help for users of the patch 3 main_units_table i just tried it and it works

[Master Necromancer]

Do you guys know there is a update for patch 4. dont know if it gives problems with your mod Selea


http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...ve-Now/page72?

No problems that I could see.

and thx for the help for users of the patch 3 main_units_table i just tried it and it works

Yes but than the mod won't work as intended. Either download patch 4 or wait till it goes public.

[Selea]

@Ismar:

For now there are two versions, one is the mod pack and the other is the movie pack, but in the future there will only be the mod version. I suggest you to delete the movie version and use the mod one because this is the version that will get updated, the movie file will get discontinued in next update.

As for the patch 3 table, no problems; you just need to switch it back if you use patch 3, it just take a minute having PFM. I myself prefer to stick to official updates, I did install the patch only because I had to work for full compatibility with the new beta patch.

@Sir_Pee_Alot:

There are no problems, the mod is fully compatible with patch 4, and it has been since the day after the beta patch has been live.

[Selea]

@Master Necromancer:

No, the mod works fine also in patch 3, it is only that single table that cause an issue but it's not a table that alters dynamic of the mod, it just controls the specific army caps of factions.

@Eagle114th:

You don't either need to double click when near. Just single click, units will walk and when in range they will charge automatically. Double click is used if you want to start running before the charge, if you only want to charge there's no need to start running or double clicking, the game does that automatically when in the right range.

If you don't want units to charge don't give an attack order (this is very useful for example with formations as Pike Phalanx or Shield Wall: if you attack you remove the formation so simply walk THROUGH the enemy - the best way to do it is to utilize the arrows in the keyboard or simply click on a spot past the enemy line -and the units will keep the formation while engaging the enemy. If you then want units to never break the ranks (and they are disciplined) use a blocked group with CTRL + G, it works as the old Guard mode of previous TW games).

[Eagle114th]

Selea,

Your tips are very helpful to me, I appreciate it! I will try charging into enemy army by single clicking on them when my army is near to them. And by the way, I did not know that I could use CTRL + G for guard mode! I have to learn about utilizing my troops with different methods and keyboard shortcuts.

[BigEl_nobody]

I tried you Mod now with a Vanilla beta 4 patch version and I had the feeling the specializing of Units is too extreme. For example when Royal Spartans and Galatian Royal Guard charge into one another, the Royal Spartans unit gets entirely killed in a few seconds literally. Same when the Galatian Royal Guard charges into a Pike Phalanx Formation, they die in an instant.
I really like the specialization of different unit types, but this seems to be way too much, because, yes Pike Phalanx should win over Melee, and Melee should win over Spearunits, but not in seconds.

[Selea]

I tried you Mod now with a Vanilla beta 4 patch version and I had the feeling the specializing of Units is too extreme. For example when Royal Spartans and Galatian Royal Guard charge into one another, the Royal Spartans unit gets entirely killed in a few seconds literally. Same when the Galatian Royal Guard charges into a Pike Phalanx Formation, they die in an instant.
I really like the specialization of different unit types, but this seems to be way too much, because, yes Pike Phalanx should win over Melee, and Melee should win over Spearunits, but not in seconds.

Galatian Royal Guards are a barbarian unit and as such they rely on pure damage strength and their abilities are all targeted on increasing damage potential at the expense of defense and that's what you DON'T want to fight a Phalanx with on the front, it will rightly get decimated in seconds (and it would have probably happened the same in real life; just image a charge of a group of mad disorganized barbarians against a group of Pikemen braced for the charge, it would be a massacre that would probably take less than a minute to end in real life). Barbarian units have much more speed than pikemen (especially when they are in a phalanx and outside of it they are much weaker), so they can use encircling tactics very well; from the rear or the flank they will destroy the pikemen with their high damage and abilities focused on it.

If you want a pure 1 vs 1 on the front melee vs pike try it with an unit that has good defense and armor and rely on disciplined tactics and abilities focused on those points, as Praetorians; they will still lose (as it should be, you cannot win a Phalanx from the front) but they will last much much more. Barbarians are simply the weakest unit against a phalanx from the front.

I actually find this fact a great step forward from vanilla, where these sort of things never happened and every unit was the same and had almost the same strengths/weaknesses as every other unit.

As for Galatian vs. Spartans that's another issue and I will have to look into it. While Galatians should win they should not be able to do it so fast. I tested it some times ago and it seemed fine, but maybe something has changed in the meantime and spears are less powerful than they should be (but are you using abilities correctly? Royal Spartans have the Hoplite Phalanx that's immensely powerful, I cannot really believe that Galatians can win them fast, I will have to see it). Tomorrow I will take a look at it.

[AdanJ]

I enjoyed the mod greatly until this 'fire at will' javelins thing. Now my melee units won't throw javelins when they charge, and now its only greek and romans? I am dissapointed as this mod was one that finally had the changes i was looking for. this is just me though, i can see that many people love and enjoy your mod. kudos sir!

[Selea]

I enjoyed the mod greatly until this 'fire at will' javelins thing. Now my melee units won't throw javelins when they charge, and now its only greek and romans? I am dissapointed as this mod was one that finally had the changes i was looking for. this is just me though, i can see that many people love and enjoy your mod. kudos sir!

Only Pilums have fire-at-will because Romans troops are defensive in nature, they don't have a good charge, so why do you want to charge with them? They would only get massacred (and in fact this is one of the motives why people in vanilla insisted praetorians were much UP in comparison to Oathsworn, because they charged against them and barbarians have a supreme charge so Praetorian would lose half men on the first impact immediately).

As for only Greeks and Romans having Javelins (but NOT missile infantry, every missile faction has javelins, we are talking here only about sword/spear infantry) that's: A) historically accurate, B) barbarians have already a very strong charge, with javelins it becomes too powerful (and in fact in vanilla it is).

I'm sorry you don't like these changes but they are here to stay because they are true to reality and are even much better for gameplay reasons.

[Dunadd]

Can't understand why every single mod ignores history as far as slingers and archers go and makes it the opposite. Historically ancient slingers (especially balaerics and Rhodians) were far better against armoured troops than archers were - and every ancient reference to them makes that clear. Yet every mod wrongly assumes archers should have better armour penetration than slingers, based on god knows what. Applying medieval longbows which weren't used in this period to a period before they existed maybe?

[Ecthelion]

Can't understand why every single mod ignores history as far as slingers and archers go and makes it the opposite. Historically ancient slingers (especially balaerics and Rhodians) were far better against armoured troops than archers were - and every ancient reference to them makes that clear. Yet every mod wrongly assumes archers should have better armour penetration than slingers, based on god knows what. Applying medieval longbows which weren't used in this period to a period before they existed maybe?

"Ancient sources" also claim Apollo, Jupiter, Zeus were responsible for the majority of victories and all other manner of crazy things. Let's also not forget that there are very few ancient sources that go into depth about tactics.

What we can do is infer from basic physics and common sense. At best a slinger is hurling a lead bullet at what... 80 m/s max? Lead is pretty soft and there's no spin on the bullet, nor is it particularly sharp. If you can explain how that can have any effect on a solid wooden shield or a padded linen vest...

Arrows are much sharper, more stable, and generally achieve higher velocities (though they will likely lose speed faster as well). But penetration wise they're head and shoulders above a lead pellet.

A properly thrown javelin can be devastating as the energy is generated from the entire body and not just the arms.

There's a reason why slingers did not survive Late Antiquity as an effective military weapon. And no, bows and arrows of the Middle Ages and those of Antiquity are not dramatically different, they're all simple bows, little to no recurve, no composite materials. Slingers are really only effective against very lightly clad infantry. Which is why you only see the sling being used militarily in warm climates where people don't wear much. Even a thick padded tunic can take most of the bite out of a lead bullet from a sling.

[Dunadd]

"Ancient sources" also claim Apollo, Jupiter, Zeus were responsible for the majority of victories and all other manner of crazy things. Let's also not forget that there are very few ancient sources that go into depth about tactics.

First massive over-generalisation. Care to cite even one passage from e.g Polybius or Xenophon which attributes victory to the gods? Nope. All about tactics, strategy, training, equipment etc.
You don't like what the historical record tells us so you try to claim it's all worthless. It's not.

What we can do is infer from basic physics and common sense. At best a slinger is hurling a lead bullet at what... 80 m/s max? Lead is pretty soft and there's no spin on the bullet, nor is it particularly sharp. If you can explain how that can have any effect on a solid wooden shield or a padded linen vest...Arrows are much sharper, more stable, and generally achieve higher velocities (though they will likely lose speed faster as well). But penetration wise they're head and shoulders above a lead pellet.

Really, you've done these tests have you? Or who has? Where do you get your 80 m/s from? Where's your evidence that arrows have more power (not velocity, FORCE)?

On "basic physics" you ignore the fact that FORCE = MASS X SPEED. Not just speed/velocity. So a lead or stone sling shot with its higher mass could have greater force than an arrow. That's apart from your made-up stats on speed. Slingshots were spun in slings repeatedly around the head before release, to build up velocity. A slingshot could travel at least as fast as an arrow - possibly faster - you'd have to do tests with a skilled slinger and a skilled archer to find out.

And the historical sources don't say slings could puncture armour, they say it could cave it in, breaking the bones under it and causing massive injuries without passing through it - e.g caving in bronze helmets and cracking the skulls under them. Slingshots didn't need to pass through armour to batter it out of shape or crack it and injure the person wearing it.

A properly thrown javelin can be devastating as the energy is generated from the entire body and not just the arms.

1) The energy generated by spinning a slingshot repeatedly in a long sling before release is high

2) The Romans feared balaeric slingers as skirmishers - they had no respect for Carthaginian javelinmen

There's a reason why slingers did not survive Late Antiquity as an effective military weapon.

That's not the case. Edward I was still using elite slingers recruited from Sherwood forest in the late 13th and early 14th centuries - and they were equipped just like ancient slingers. And medieval English historians reported that slingshots by English and Irish slingers were capable of injuring men even through medieval knights' armour, which at that time was a mixture of chain and plate. (See the Wargames Research Group's Armies of Feudal Europe and Armies of The Middle Ages. Froissart also reports a slingshot at the battle of Najera in 1367 during the Hundred Years War cracking a helmet in two.

And no, bows and arrows of the Middle Ages and those of Antiquity are not dramatically different, they're all simple bows, little to no recurve, no composite materials.

On longbows to some extent true, but there were very few archers in ancient armies, for whatever reason (maybe seen as mainly a hunting weapon, maybe easier to recruit slingers as there were lots of shepherds and hunters who could use slings well, maybe just as effective as bows/ more effective against armoured enemies)

Slingers are really only effective against very lightly clad infantry. Which is why you only see the sling being used militarily in warm climates where people don't wear much. Even a thick padded tunic can take most of the bite out of a lead bullet from a sling.

That's a claim with no evidence to back it up and completely contradicted by ancient and medieval historical sources.

The ancient Britons from southern to northern England and southern Scotland used slings too for a start, but didn't use bows, despite living in a much less warm climate than the Mediterranean.

Far more likely slings were more widely used in ancient times because they were much easier and cheaper to make than bows, could use stones where the slinger couldn't afford lead shot (stones unlike arrows being freely available) and as or more effective than them, especially for keeping wolves away from herds - but we know they were more effective than bows against armour too.

[Selea]

First massive over-generalisation. Care to cite even one passage from e.g Polybius or Xenophon which attributes victory to the gods? Nope. All about tactics, strategy, training, equipment etc.
You don't like what the historical record tells us so you try to claim it's all worthless. It's not.



Really, you've done these tests have you? Or who has? Where do you get your 80 m/s from? Where's your evidence that arrows have more power (not velocity, FORCE)?

On "basic physics" you ignore the fact that FORCE = MASS X SPEED. Not just speed/velocity. So a lead or stone sling shot with its higher mass could have greater force than an arrow. That's apart from your made-up stats on speed. Slingshots were spun in slings repeatedly around the head before release, to build up velocity. A slingshot could travel at least as fast as an arrow - possibly faster - you'd have to do tests with a skilled slinger and a skilled archer to find out.

And the historical sources don't say slings could puncture armour, they say it could cave it in, breaking the bones under it and causing massive injuries without passing through it - e.g caving in bronze helmets and cracking the skulls under them. Slingshots didn't need to pass through armour to batter it out of shape or crack it and injure the person wearing it.



1) The energy generated by spinning a slingshot repeatedly in a long sling before release is high

2) The Romans feared balaeric slingers as skirmishers - they had no respect for Carthaginian javelinmen



That's not the case. Edward I was still using elite slingers recruited from Sherwood forest in the late 13th and early 14th centuries - and they were equipped just like ancient slingers. And medieval English historians reported that slingshots by English and Irish slingers were capable of injuring men even through medieval knights' armour, which at that time was a mixture of chain and plate. (See the Wargames Research Group's Armies of Feudal Europe and Armies of The Middle Ages. Froissart also reports a slingshot at the battle of Najera in 1367 during the Hundred Years War cracking a helmet in two.


On longbows to some extent true, but there were very few archers in ancient armies, for whatever reason (maybe seen as mainly a hunting weapon, maybe easier to recruit slingers as there were lots of shepherds and hunters who could use slings well, maybe just as effective as bows/ more effective against armoured enemies)



That's a claim with no evidence to back it up and completely contradicted by ancient and medieval historical sources.

The ancient Britons from southern to northern England and southern Scotland used slings too for a start, but didn't use bows, despite living in a much less warm climate than the Mediterranean.

Far more likely slings were more widely used in ancient times because they were much easier and cheaper to make than bows, could use stones where the slinger couldn't afford lead shot (stones unlike arrows being freely available) and as or more effective than them, especially for keeping wolves away from herds - but we know they were more effective than bows against armour too.

Sorry for not replying to this before, but I had a lot of work to do.

You may also be right on the historical fact that slings are more damaging than bows in this period, however sometimes reality and gameplay collides and this is an evident case.

If you would make slings have more AP than bows given many paramters in the game it would be a true challenge to balance everything. Slings are very cheap, they have a lot of range, and the calculations of shield armor is odd to say the least, so it would be really problematic to make an unit so cheap to make and spam more powerful than archers that cost much more and are more rare.

[Selea]

Can't understand why every single mod ignores history as far as slingers and archers go and makes it the opposite. Historically ancient slingers (especially balaerics and Rhodians) were far better against armoured troops than archers were - and every ancient reference to them makes that clear. Yet every mod wrongly assumes archers should have better armour penetration than slingers, based on god knows what. Applying medieval longbows which weren't used in this period to a period before they existed maybe?

When you will find me a rock that can bypass a full suit of armor as a javelin or an arrow can I will deny physics with you. It doesn't matter if there were no longbows in that period, even if you throw an arrow with the help of a simple elastic band you will likely have more chance to pierce armor than throwing a rock with a sling at it.

Relying on ancient reports for battle dynamics is just like relying on the Aeneid or Odysseus for them.

[Kymmuriel]

Hello Selea, as you asked for some intel about interesting unit/skinpack, i do think that this one the Turanianghazic nomadic tribes expension is a must have for any ppls trying to play nomadic campaigns, it add a lot of units to the poor roster of this culture.
As for it, theres too the Dacian and Thracion unit mod made by Agent2P, those 2 units packs are historical unit/skinpack, and you can ask Agent2P to put historical names too like what splenyi did with his ittle but effective mod.
Arete ton Xenon Carthage Overall is definitly a must have too for any dudes lovin Carthage.

I m really looking forward your co-operation with others mod because your battle mod is jsut the best one out there, and ive tested most of them, and yours is reallu just the best, and is above any others. I think the Splenyi one would be very similar to yours, well its still wip but hes really trying to do things the same way you do historacly as far as possible

[Selea]

TO ALL USERS:

I need help on knowing what are the best re-texture mods out there because I am too busy working on the gameplay changes and I cannot look through 20 pages to find which are the best.

If you could help me on knowing what are the best reskins to implement I would be grateful.

Thanks in advance.