Ars Gratia Artis - Complete Battle Overhaul, v2.7.2 - Patch 7 ready (updated 15/11/13)

[Master Necromancer]

First of all thank you very much for your testing and your kind words.

1. Elephants: yes, I noticed, they are a little weak now. At beginning I made them too strong so I must have nerfed them too much. I already started tweaking them.

2. Also this I know. It is in my todo list but I first focused on more unique factions and units, I will surely balance the accuracy on slingers on next update.

3. I have also to tweak Camels because as of now (as in vanilla) they are extremely weak. This has left you with the 2 Cataphracts against the Berskerkers and Master Swordsmen and it is a miracle you even won. Cataphracts are extremely powerful but in prolonged melee against very high attack units they can have some problems especially in the beginning of the fight when Barbarians are immensely strong. The fact that they are even half the size doesn't help either. But all in all Cataphracts are balanced (I don't expect them to win 1 vs 1 against special elite units of Barbarians if you leave them be in melee, or if they win they do so just barely) the real problem are the camel units that are to be tweaked strongly.

Again thank you for your feedback, as always you nailed down the balance problems the mod has at this point. It's nothing game breaking but I want to aim for the best experience possible so these are issues that must be corrected.

You are welcome.

I shall postpone my next Carthage campaign until the next update than and start a Macedon now.

I must say that also I love that now pikes are real pikes, and the units move and fight realistically also new javelins ftw!

[est Dudus]

Once again great job....I don't know how you did what every battle mod as tried to do, but you have sir.

Now, for me I wish you would focus on this battle mod and hopefully fix the CAI for us. I wanted to ask you about either including a version of this reskin or how to remove yours so I can use this. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hield-patterns

He has given permission to use his reskin to any mod so.......I just hope you are not spending to much time doing re-colors and stuff like that, because you are seriously like a hero to many of us here bud. I wish I could give you the 60 dollars that went to Creative Assembly, because you made this the game I wanted to play.

[BigEl_nobody]

@Selea
As good as your Mod maybe is, you really should work on the compatibility with other mods. I for instance use Lines of Battle Mod and Close Combat Mod both and use the Mod Manager to overwrite one of them partially with the other one, so I can have parts of both. But with your Mod even when I take every Mod out of my folder, that gets marked as incompatible with yours, the Game still freezes on the start loading screen, I guess incompatible with Unit Packs or Skin Packs...

And as much I want to try your Mod out again, I don´t want to use it for the price of not using several other mods, that are maybe conflicting in a very minor way.

[Selea]

@Selea
As good as your Mod maybe is, you really should work on the compatibility with other mods. I for instance use Lines of Battle Mod and Close Combat Mod both and use the Mod Manager to overwrite one of them partially with the other one, so I can have parts of both. But with your Mod even when I take every Mod out of my folder, that gets marked as incompatible with yours, the Game still freezes on the start loading screen, I guess incompatible with Unit Packs or Skin Packs...

And as much I want to try your Mod out again, I don´t want to use it for the price of not using several other mods, that are maybe conflicting in a very minor way.

What you do with Lines of Battle and Close Combat can be fine, but you cannot do the same with this mod because it is not the same thing. This is a complete battle overhaul, it is not just two rows in some tables changed as the mods you mentioned.

I sincerely don't know why it crashes because with the new version (after 3.02) there should be no issues on that point, but IMO it is a luck it does because if you could be able to mix things as you do with other battle mods you would just have a total mess. Simply put my approach is completely different than other battle mods authors: for them the underground dynamics of the game seem to be fine, for me they aren't and I reworked them completely, so how can you "mix and match" if my battle mod and those others do complete different things? (the only thing in common may be the fatigue and morale dynamics, but also there changing them without changing the way abilities work serves nothing and if you read the description in the abilities changes you will understand why).

For other mods as unit packs etc. they work, it's only that many of the stats will not be properly balanced; I have no problems on adding compatibility versions of the best unit packs, it will not take much time (it is just a matter of reworking the armor sets of those units and tweak a little the stats).

Other mods that alter campaign stats or textures are perfectly compatible. It's true, you must make a choice; if you like more the approach of those other battle mods I have no problems with it, but simple there cannot be any sharing because it would never work. In fact I wanted to make the mod finally a mod version so as to use mod manager with it, but just for this problematic I am a bit worried because Frankenstein is nothing in comparison.

[BigEl_nobody]

What you do with Lines of Battle and Close Combat can be fine, but you cannot do the same with this mod because it is not the same thing. This is a complete battle overhaul, it is not just two rows in some tables changed as the mods you mentioned.

I sincerely don't know why it crashes because with the new version (after 3.02) there should be no issues on that point, but IMO it is a luck it does because if you could be able to mix things as you do with other battle mods you would just have a total mess. Simply put my approach is completely different than other battle mods authors: for them the underground dynamics of the game seem to be fine, for me they aren't and I reworked them completely, so how can you "mix and match" if my battle mod and those others do complete different things? (the only thing in common may be the fatigue and morale dynamics, but also there changing them without changing the way abilities work serves nothing and if you read the description in the abilities changes you will understand why).

For other mods as unit packs etc. they work, it's only that many of the stats will not be properly balanced; I have no problems on adding compatibility versions of the best unit packs, it will not take much time (it is just a matter of reworking the armor sets of those units and tweak a little the stats).

Other mods that alter campaign stats or textures are perfectly compatible. It's true, you must make a choice; if you like more the approach of those other battle mods I have no problems with it, but simple there cannot be any sharing because it would never work. In fact I wanted to make the mod finally a mod version so as to use mod manager with it, but just for this problematic I am a bit worried because Frankenstein is nothing in comparison.

I have no problem with making a choice between minor Battle Mods or a Battle Overhaul, it´s just doesn´t work for me even when I kick those Battle Mods out of my Data Folder. At the moment I use Mods that Changes Campaign and CAI, alter Unit Cards and Unit Textures, Several Unit Packs (like Radious ones) and remodeld Versions of Vanilla Units. Your Mod itself has 216 Conflicts in the ModManager, which are all with the Vanilla Data Files, so I guess that is intended :/

[Master Necromancer]

I have no problem with making a choice between minor Battle Mods or a Battle Overhaul, it´s just doesn´t work for me even when I kick those Battle Mods out of my Data Folder. At the moment I use Mods that Changes Campaign and CAI, alter Unit Cards and Unit Textures, Several Unit Packs (like Radious ones) and remodeld Versions of Vanilla Units. Your Mod itself has 216 Conflicts in the ModManager, which are all with the Vanilla Data Files, so I guess that is intended :/

All mods that change the gameplay conflict with vanilla, please deselect that in the mod manager so that you can clearly see what mods conflict with each other.

[Selea]

I have no problem with making a choice between minor Battle Mods or a Battle Overhaul, it´s just doesn´t work for me even when I kick those Battle Mods out of my Data Folder. At the moment I use Mods that Changes Campaign and CAI, alter Unit Cards and Unit Textures, Several Unit Packs (like Radious ones) and remodeld Versions of Vanilla Units. Your Mod itself has 216 Conflicts in the ModManager, which are all with the Vanilla Data Files, so I guess that is intended :/

All the mods have "conflicts" with vanilla tables since they change them, elsewhere what they would modify?

It is just that this particular mod changes a lot of variables in the tables so there are a lot of "conflicts", while usually for other battle mods they are much less.

Don't worry about the conflicts with the vanilla tables, that's perfectly normal, it is only when there are conflicts with other mods that it means that some of the same variables are changed in the tables. If it is just a minor number you can also no care but if the conflicts are many then maybe it's better to not use them together until you know what you are doing or you want purposely some variable in one of the mod changed with other ones.

[Master Necromancer]

@Selea
As good as your Mod maybe is, you really should work on the compatibility with other mods. I for instance use Lines of Battle Mod and Close Combat Mod both and use the Mod Manager to overwrite one of them partially with the other one, so I can have parts of both. But with your Mod even when I take every Mod out of my folder, that gets marked as incompatible with yours, the Game still freezes on the start loading screen, I guess incompatible with Unit Packs or Skin Packs...

And as much I want to try your Mod out again, I don´t want to use it for the price of not using several other mods, that are maybe conflicting in a very minor way.

Dude, really? This mod IS compatible with unit packs and skin packs. But in all common sense you can not use mods that modify the same files, so no files that modify BAI and unit attributes can not work together, even if you manage to run the game the mods will not run as they should.

@master necromancer:

I tweaked elephants, now they are very strong.

As for camels, looking better, there are not many powerful units in the game, they are mostly archers or light infantry so there's no point on making them stronger.

For what it concerns Cataphracts, I tested them while I was testing Elephants and they seems to me if anything they are too powerful now (and in fact I reduced their power slightly); which difficulty were you testing with? Because for testing purposes in custom battles you should always use normal difficulty because higher then that the AI "cheats" (i.e. gives to units a lot of bonuses to stats to artificially increase the challenge), so if you tested on very hard or above units may seem weaker than in reality they are.

Anyway, I will now release the update for elephants.

Cool, and I always test the game in Hard.

Also would be very nice to make your mod in mod file instead of a movie so that it can appear in mod manager for increased compatibility and stability.

[Selea]

Cool, and I always test the game in Hard.

At beginning I did it myself, but then everything was unbalanced because hard gives arbitrary bonuses to the AI that aren't there. Normal is the only difficulty that is perfectly balanced. Not you nor the AI has any bonus on stats.Already on hard the AI gets decreased damage, it has bonuses on attack and defense and fatigue is reduced (and with the increased reliance on fatigue of this mod this means much more than in vanilla). I actually think that if you play a Legendary campaign with this mod the BAI would seriously challenge you no matter what, especially in patch 4 where the CAI recruits more elite units (if you use a mod as Citry Recruitment it would be really difficult to win an equal force battle, it would take the best tactics or hoping the BAI does something stupid).

[Master Necromancer]

At beginning I did it myself, but then everything was unbalanced because hard gives arbitrary bonuses to the AI that aren't there. Normal is the only difficulty that is perfectly balanced. Not you nor the AI has any bonus on stats.Already on hard the AI gets decreased damage, it has bonuses on attack and defense and fatigue is reduced (and with the increased reliance on fatigue of this mod this means much more than in vanilla). I actually think that if you play a Legendary campaign with this mod the BAI would seriously challenge you no matter what, especially in patch 4 where the CAI recruits more elite units (if you use a mod as Citry Recruitment it would be really difficult to win an equal force battle, it would take the best tactics or hoping the BAI does something stupid).

Ok. Than what you are saying is that I should play the campaign on Normal? I don't have anything against a harder BAI but a too easy and passive CAI is something I can't take so VH is really a minimum to me atm.

[Master Necromancer]

Sorry for double post but this deserves a new post. I just saw the change log, why did you increase the javelin ammo, it was perfect as it was, please put it back, don't mess with perfection.

[Selea]

Sorry for double post but this deserves a new post. I just saw the change log, why did you increase the javelin ammo, it was perfect as it was, please put it back, don't mess with perfection.

No, I didn't increase Javelin ammo on missile units, that's invaried; in version 3.02 I did decrease Javelin ammo on melee infantry (not missile) and in this way they could use Javelins only once instead than twice (that IMO is better so you can use the javelin on a charge two times per battle if it is a long struggle) and in version 3.03 I did put the ammo back to 2.

Nothing is changed for Javelin ammo in missile units, that's good as it is.

[Master Necromancer]

No, I didn't increase Javelin ammo on missile units, that's invaried; in version 3.02 I did decrease Javelin ammo on melee infantry (not missile) and in this way they could use Javelins only once instead than twice (that IMO is better so you can use the javelin on a charge two times per battle if it is a long struggle) and in version 3.03 I did put the ammo back to 2.

Nothing is changed for Javelin ammo in missile units, that's good as it is.

Ou... Sorry than, I overreacted.

Hello Selea,

Thank you for your reply.. I have one more question that haven't been answered yet.. so I feel that it is important that I ask:

6) I noticed lot of problems with charging... I tested different ground army, they will NOT charge into enemy army, even when I either once or double clicked on them. I think I found some problem here. Both infantry and cavalry won't charge properly on my side, especially throwing pilums (Roman Legionaries). Charging features for player side is not enabled (??? Correct me if I m wrong) so they could not charge unlike AI do. AI charge into me properly while I could not. How do I properly charge into enemy army?

For further testing, I used royal cataphact from Parthian to charge into enemy.. They fired archer (???) instead of charging with lance aiming for them. That confuses me... I thought these royal Cataprhact is not missile cavalry? And I pressed alt (where cursor changed into sword icon) and double clicked on unit, these cavalry doesn't even lower their lance to aim toward them for full charging.

I tested almost all units with this mod and they all charge when they get close to the targeted enemy unit. So my best guess is that it is a conflict with something that you use or something else.

And yeah with this mod Cataprhact can use bows.

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

Hi Selea great mod. love your work but can i ask you can i test this mod work with yours
TheDuBMod (Superior Campaign AI). and for the texures mods please keep as historical as posibble. and maybe can you also make walls stronger and towers they get destroyed to fast. maybe 2times the hp from what they now have. when im home i give this a shot!

[Master Necromancer]

Hi Selea great mod. love your work but can i ask you can i test this mod work with yours
TheDuBMod (Superior Campaign AI). and for the texures mods please keep as historical as posibble. and maybe can you also make walls stronger and towers they get destroyed to fast. maybe 2times the hp from what they now have. when im home i give this a shot!

You can but only download the CampaignAI not the BattleAI.

[Selea]

Hi Selea great mod. love your work but can i ask you can i test this mod work with yours
TheDuBMod (Superior Campaign AI). and for the texures mods please keep as historical as posibble. and maybe can you also make walls stronger and towers they get destroyed to fast. maybe 2times the hp from what they now have. when im home i give this a shot!

You can use campaign AI mods without any issue (I also recommend it in fact) and also naturally all re-textures you want.

As for stronger walls I have already thought about it. I decided to delay the change further because that meant adding yet another table in the mod that decreases even further compatibility with other mods around. But I will see: if no many other mods that are no battle ones use that particular table I will add the change surely (I don't like paper walls myself; I actually don't like torches bringing down IRON gates, but that's a thing you have to live with, since if you make torches no work the AI is half lost 70% of the times).

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

You can use campaign AI mods without any issue (I also recommend it in fact) and also naturally all re-textures you want.

As for stronger walls I have already thought about it. I decided to delay the change further because that meant adding yet another table in the mod that decreases even further compatibility with other mods around. But I will see: if no many other mods that are no battle ones use that particular table I will add the change surely (I don't like paper walls myself; I actually don't like torches bringing down IRON gates, but that's a thing you have to live with, since if you make torches no work the AI is half lost 70% of the times).

Ok no problem, but why do want someone want to use a other mod if we have yours! but maybe someday you can add a 2 versions 1 with and 1 without those chance,s. but thanxs anyway im home with a hour and then i will test this masterpiece, whats only getting better and better.

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

Oke thanxs. and maybe you can also add some celtic unit skin packs that are out there. and remove some off the artillery from some celitic tribes that they not have historical. dont know is thats in the same tables or you need to chance others but i love to play a mod like this and with as mutch historical gameplay as possible

[Selea]

Oke thanxs. and maybe you can also add some celtic unit skin packs that are out there. and remove some off the artillery from some celitic tribes that they not have historical. dont know is thats in the same tables or you need to chance others but i love to play a mod like this and with as mutch historical gameplay as possible

There has been a long thread in the TW forums about the issue of Catapults with Barbarian units.

It's true, it is not very historically accurate but the problem is that without catapults assaulting a large city is a major problem and forcing users to have to go around the problem I don't know if it is very welcomed (in the thread I was talking the majority of people didn't like at all if CA did remove catapults from Averni and the like), so for gameplay reasons maybe it's better they have catapults. I already lowered by much the strength of Barbarian catapults and their men (you can kill them even faster than other types) but I know perfectly about this particular problem and I will see about inventing something.

I like myself to be as much historically accurate as possible and I am always open to people knowing more than myself about the particular strength/weaknesses of factions in the era to put them in the mod.

As for celtic unit textures I asked a couple of those mods authors if I could insert them here and they denied me the possibility saying they prefer to keep their work private for now, but I will keep looking (as for other factions).

[Master Necromancer]

Also kudos on converting to mod format.

And it is very frustrating because I can't +rep you TWC is making me spread rep and I did and it still asks the same...