Ars Gratia Artis - Complete Battle Overhaul, v2.7.2 - Patch 7 ready (updated 15/11/13)

[dfeal]

Hello. Your battle mod looks very interesting but I have one or two questions/observations, if you don't mind...

Why is walking -1 fatigue? Surely that means units rest while walking? I always set this to 1, not -1.

I really enjoy limits on high value units because otherwise what is the point of all the other units when you can spam whole legions of elite units? But I question some of your limits? Lets say that the max number of armies possible is 30. Then the First and Eagle Cohorts should only be 30 max, no? One per legion/army. And, still using 30 as max number of armies and using the Roman faction as the example, you should be able to recruit 10-20 (I use 35-40 units per army in my games) heavy infantry per legion (read principes, hastati, legionaries etc.), no?
I wonder if you can script the increase of such special units depending on how many armies you can field?

How are you dealing with artillery? I do not like seeing barbarian factions (well, most really, except Greeks and Romans mainly) fielding artillery units. I normally remove their recruitment from their buildings.

Have you increased transport ships max men so that units are not spread across several ships?

I have been using STIM with some personal changes for weeks now and have really enjoyed the difference it makes to vanilla. For the first time melee is prolonged. Flanking and rear attacks are devastating. Armour values don't seem to work very well in Rome 2 (interesting thread all about this which I can dig out) so I increased melee defense on all units and lowered melee attack. Units bash around at each other and at first causalities are low until fatigue and moral kick in later. Unlike in vanilla where casualties streamed through as if units were being machine-gunned.

Can others here please comment on how STIM and this mod differ, or are alike, in battles? What are the experiences like? Is one much faster/slower than the other? Any mod that allows units to fight until the last few men is to be avoided IMO. We all know which mods I mean but hey, each to their own, right? Tis only a game. I just prefer mine not to have all units last-stand like fanatical elite samurai-Spartans with 10 years veterancy under their belts.

Look forward to your replies...

[CrusaderBear]

This mod needs to be rebalanced. I was playing a naval invasion battle. The AI disembarked their two javelin boats on the beach so I had my slinger troop transport pelt them from afar. None of them died. The javelin men were even facing inland. I moved my slinger boat closer and let them shoot 20% of their ammo before quitting the battle. Now, I'd understand if I was shooting at heavy infantry, but those were skirmish units. That should not have happened.

[dominiceu]

This mod needs to be rebalanced. I was playing a naval invasion battle. The AI disembarked their two javelin boats on the beach so I had my slinger troop transport pelt them from afar. None of them died. The javelin men were even facing inland. I moved my slinger boat closer and let them shoot 20% of their ammo before quitting the battle. Now, I'd understand if I was shooting at heavy infantry, but those were skirmish units. That should not have happened.

This has nothing to do with the mod, i had this problem many times on vanilla, as far as i remember this was even addressed in one of the patches. Usually this happens when 1 or more of npc's units guys get stuck in the boat and that unit becomes somewhat invincible (you cant click to attack them etc, but this also happens randomly and only with naval units). Whenever this happens to me, i just reload the battle or leave them be, because its usually 1 bugged unit and it has no influence over how battle turns out to be.

Selea i wonder if theres any way to tweak ai pathfinding or is it also hardcoded? Because i just love how immersive everything looks with your mod, the marching, the fight itself but as soon as unit has some rubble in its way or especially a house and they have to make a corner, the way they do it just looks so stupid, they just get cramped up in that corner and slowly move 2 by 2 or even 1 by 1 while they are on the road with no obstacles again (this doesnt happen often but it happens, it happened both in vanilla and with your mod)

[Selea]

Selea i wonder if theres any way to tweak ai pathfinding or is it also hardcoded? Because i just love how immersive everything looks with your mod, the marching, the fight itself but as soon as unit has some rubble in its way or especially a house and they have to make a corner, the way they do it just looks so stupid, they just get cramped up in that corner and slowly move 2 by 2 or even 1 by 1 while they are on the road with no obstacles again (this doesnt happen often but it happens, it happened both in vanilla and with your mod)

Pathfinding is hardcoded, and CA is working on it as per patch notes.

As for the bug you mention after, that's a problem with one of the reskins in the mod. Some of them are WIP so these things are to be expected.

[Cope]

I have a question about the unit type limit in this mod.

As you know, this mod only allows you to recruit a certain number of any given unit type. However, does this mean that once you've reached your limit that's it for the entire game? For instance, if I reached my recruitment limit of a certain unit type and then lost some of those units in battle or because I disbanded them, I cannot recruit anymore?

Theoretically I could be 0/45 (For legionaries) but still be unable to recruit more?

Clarification would be welcome!

[Socktu]

I have a question about the unit type limit in this mod.

As you know, this mod only allows you to recruit a certain number of any given unit type. However, does this mean that once you've reached your limit that's it for the entire game? For instance, if I reached my recruitment limit of a certain unit type and then lost some of those units in battle or because I disbanded them, I cannot recruit anymore?

Theoretically I could be 0/45 (For legionaries) but still be unable to recruit more?

Clarification would be welcome!

No, you're able to build them back up.

[Selea]

Theoretically I could be 0/45 (For legionaries) but still be unable to recruit more?

Clarification would be welcome!

In almost all cases yes, you can recruit more, but there are special cases (labeled as [DEPLETABLE] in the description) in which you cannot recruit anymore.

For example Praetorian units are a case of this, since they were units used in civil wars in Rome, not for battle so once they are gone they are forever. You only have 1 full stack of them (in total).

If it was possible I would like to only make Praetorian available during a Civil War, but sadly there's no way I've found to do this change.

[Cope]

In almost all cases yes, you can recruit more, but there are special cases (labeled as [DEPLETABLE] in the description) in which you cannot recruit anymore.

For example Praetorian units are a case of this, since they were units used in civil wars in Rome, not for battle so once they are gone they are forever. You only have 1 full stack of them (in total).

If it was possible I would like to only make Praetorian available during a Civil War, but sadly there's no way I've found to do this change.

Thanks for this, though I have deliberately disbanded units of legionaries to test this feature, and found that when I went to try and recruit them again, I was unable to do so. This was even true where I raised a new army just in case I was over the limit of 9 Legionaries per stack. I also checked the overall number I had in every army and found that I had < 45 (the total allowed).

Since they are not listed as 'depletable' I'm unsure why I'm not able to recruit anymore. Perhaps this is a bug? Or is there something which I've totally missed? I've attached a picture to show exactly what I mean in case there is any confusion.



Any help is welcome! Great great mod by the way.

[Selea]

Update 1.15:

- Created specific cohesion rules for Barbarian factions for a better representation of their fighting style. Now you will really feel the difference from them and civilized/disciplined units/factions.
- Increased speed of Barbarian units. In this mod Barbarians are the factions that rely on pure body mechanics to try to win, without any form of battle strategy.
- Removed all remnants of Shield Wall/Screen from Barbarian units.
- Added Killing Spree to Thracian Nobles.
- Further tweaking of all special abilities for better balance.
- Corrected issue with torches not being able to properly bring down gates (for some this could have been an enhancement but the BAI relies majorly on those).

That's it. For today I'm done. Tomorrow I hope I will be able to finish all the special abilities changes and finally create a released version of the mod. After this I will work on tweaking all things so everything is perfectly balanced then hopefully I will start working on unit balance (if I will ever be able to do it because it's a lot of work; however also without it this mod is already much more balanced than many others).

EDIT:

Little update (v1.16). Before taking some rest I made a little update in which I removed Quick Reload from all artillery. In units yes, but in Ballista and Scorpions? I don't like it.

[Selea]

Update 2.0:

The released version is finally here! It has been an huge work but I'm really proud of the result, I hope you will be too.

Please provide feedback. I will now focus on tweaking all the changes to the most and correcting all the bugs (hoping they will be not many). After this I will see if I will do the total unit rebalance or not. Luckily with the changes in the mod the units are much more balanced than before without having to tailor every unit individually.

Have a nice day.

Selea.

[Master Necromancer]

Ok after 20 or so custom battles with various faction combination (yet to try in campaign) I have this to say:

Problems:

1. Shock Cavalry: They are to close together, so much so that some units like Ptolomenic (probably spelled that wrong) Cavalry of Egypt are having movement animation problems because of it, and shock cavalry in diamond formation that are moving at a normal pace look like they are in slow motion..

2. When I am the defender AI tends to run towards me from the start: With new fatigue values this makes the AI army already half-tired when they get to me, you can see the problem here.

3. Overall morale still to low:Would be nice if you raised everyones morale so that the difference would be more noticeable, also units tend to waiver after 30% of the unit dies.

Suggestions:

1. Generals special abilities: Would be nice to buff them a bit and raise the cool down times on them (lets say 3x more) so that they play a more tactical role.

2. Please give chariots a dismount ability! ​

[Selea]

Ok after 20 or so custom battles with various faction combination (yet to try in campaign) I have this to say:
1. Shock Cavalry: They are to close together, so much so that some units like Ptolomenic (probably spelled that wrong) Cavalry of Egypt are having movement animation problems because of it, and shock cavalry in diamond formation that are moving at a normal pace look like they are in slow motion.

Ok, I will look at the animation problem and increase the distance a little. However diamond formation speed is intentional because the bonuses are huge. It is done to discourage simply keeping always the formation instead of using it just before you want to fight a strong cavalry/infantry unit.

2. When I am the defender AI tends to run towards me from the start: With new fatigue values this makes the AI army already half-tired when they get to me, you can see the problem here.

The stupid AI. The problem is that if you balance fatigue for the AI then it becomes almost pointless as it was in vanilla... It would be much better if CA would just stop having men running at you all the time. Anyway I will see if I can lower the penalties for running so that the AI will suicide less.

3. Overall morale still to low:Would be nice if you raised everyones morale so that the difference would be more noticeable, also units tend to waiver after 30% of the unit dies.

Ok, thanks. I will tune morale further.

1. Generals special abilities: Would be nice to buff them a bit and raise the cool down times on them (lets say 3x more) so that they play a more tactical role.

I already thought something similar but I wanted first to finish tweaking the "normal" special abilities before starting tweaking the General ones. I see that others think as I do about the issue.

2. Please give chariots a dismount ability! ​

I will see what I can do
I never tried to do something as this so I don't know how it is done. I will look into it and if it possible I will do it.

Thank you for your feedback, it is much appreciated.

[Master Necromancer]

Ok, I will look at the animation problem and increase the distance a little. However diamond formation speed is intentional because the bonuses are huge. It is done to discourage simply keeping always the formation instead of using it just before you want to fight a strong cavalry/infantry unit.

The problem is that diamond formation "walking" is comically slow, and because of the tightness is even slower.

The stupid AI. The problem is that if you balance fatigue for the AI then it becomes almost pointless as it was in vanilla... It would be much better if CA would just stop having men running at you all the time. Anyway I will see if I can lower the penalties for running so that the AI will suicide less.

I hope you will find a way to make the AI walk a certain distance and than charge.

Ok, thanks. I will tune morale further.

I already thought something similar but I wanted first to finish tweaking the "normal" special abilities before starting tweaking the General ones. I see that others think as I do about the issue.

I will see what I can do
I never tried to do something as this so I don't know how it is done. I will look into it and if it possible I will do it.

Thank you for your feedback, it is much appreciated.

Cool.

But I must say the mod is awesome it gives more of a personality to the factions and the AI uses them as it should without a flaw (Except for the running).

[Selea]

The problem is that diamond formation "walking" is comically slow, and because of the tightness is even slower.

Now it should be better. I decreased a little the penalty and the formation is larger, so it shouldn't go "slow-mo" also if it will still moderately slower than normal speed.
I actually wanted to change the formation a little (to not be so vertical) but I haven't found a way yet.

[Selea]

I tailored even more.

I tweaked a little walk speed of heavy/very heavy cavalry and changed the speed penalty in a run/charge speed penalty instead.
But the real problem is the formation so the only way to have cavalry not seem to go at a snail pace when walking under diamond is to alter the formation so it is more large than it is. I will see if I can modify it also because I don't like it the way it is.

[Aethyr]

Just fired up my benched campaign. It was becoming quite tedious, I was using another mod, but while the battles were definitely slower the slug fests seemed to drag on and on even with devastating flank and rear charges, and in my unfortunate plight to rid the map of Libya Carthage and Nova Carthage, the hoplite's were way too stubborn for my liking.

Enter Ars Gratia Artis.

My forces are assaulting yet another city. The enemy has dug in and are have a formidable size force blocking the best path through the city, some decisive action must take place, a slug fest will be far too costly for my forces even if we manage to win.

After the javelins fly and men fall dying, the lines meet and fight to a stalemate, a slow grind as soldiers fight back and forth. Softening their left, my right, with javelins allows my legionnaires to punch a hole in their line, this will be the beginning of their downfall. The first unit penetrates their line and forms up in defense of the Libyan reserves, another unit of legionaires enters the gap and quickly flanks the hoplites currently engaged with my next unit. An evenly matched battle quickly turns to route. Over and over.
Now, in the previous mod I played, these flank charges barely did a thing, and I was forced to watch the slow grinding fights where for some reason the men with spears seemed to ALWAYS have the upper hand. Not here, It was not an overwhelming skill of a particular type of unit, nor overwhelming numbers of my army. I felt the mobility of my forces being able to surgically take apart my foe the key to my success.

Thoroughly enjoying the mod, though I must add, I have modified Selea's mod with Ahiga's FAW Oldschool Javelins mod as I prefer to use my Legions as i did in Rome 1.

Keep up the good work, look forward to seeing the future of this mod, especially with the balancing of units that is to come.

If you haven't tried this mod yet, definitely give it a go!

[Master Necromancer]

Just fired up my benched campaign. It was becoming quite tedious, I was using another mod, but while the battles were definitely slower the slug fests seemed to drag on and on even with devastating flank and rear charges, and in my unfortunate plight to rid the map of Libya Carthage and Nova Carthage, the hoplite's were way too stubborn for my liking.

Enter Ars Gratia Artis.

My forces are assaulting yet another city. The enemy has dug in and are have a formidable size force blocking the best path through the city, some decisive action must take place, a slug fest will be far too costly for my forces even if we manage to win.

After the javelins fly and men fall dying, the lines meet and fight to a stalemate, a slow grind as soldiers fight back and forth. Softening their left, my right, with javelins allows my legionnaires to punch a hole in their line, this will be the beginning of their downfall. The first unit penetrates their line and forms up in defense of the Libyan reserves, another unit of legionaires enters the gap and quickly flanks the hoplites currently engaged with my next unit. An evenly matched battle quickly turns to route. Over and over.
Now, in the previous mod I played, these flank charges barely did a thing, and I was forced to watch the slow grinding fights where for some reason the men with spears seemed to ALWAYS have the upper hand. Not here, It was not an overwhelming skill of a particular type of unit, nor overwhelming numbers of my army. I felt the mobility of my forces being able to surgically take apart my foe the key to my success.

Thoroughly enjoying the mod, though I must add, I have modified Selea's mod with Ahiga's FAW Oldschool Javelins mod as I prefer to use my Legions as i did in Rome 1.

Keep up the good work, look forward to seeing the future of this mod, especially with the balancing of units that is to come.

If you haven't tried this mod yet, definitely give it a go!

Seconded. And can't wait for those diamond formation changes.

[jfood]

Nice mod, really preferable to most of the other 'battle mods' out there. Personally, I think they way you've set morale is fine and units seem to break when appropriate. It's really nice having flanking and rear shock cavalry charges actually work, as opposed to smashing into a spear levy already engaged and getting mushed, like with some other mods.

All and all, nice balance. There's a little bit of muckery with units rotating in formation and exposing a flank in battle... but I think that's a vanilla game issue.

I do miss my flaming javelins though. They're just so great for killing elephants.

[Selea]

@Aethyr:

Thank you very much for your kind words. It gives me reason to continue working on this mod, even if it is a lot of work.

@Master Necromancer:

I'm becoming mad on trying to alter that damn Diamond formation to be larger. It seem I cannot find where the formations are stored to try to change them.

For what it concerns the effects I changed the bonuses on Diamond formation to be focused on anti-cavalry and IMO it works even better in this way because it balances quite nicely against Flying Wedge used by Melee Cav that it is instead an anti-infantry formation with a penalty on speed. With the changes you must beware when you use the various formations because they expose the units weakness along increasing the specific benefits (for example Diamond increases even more the capability of anti-cav of shock cavalry but given the penalty vs. infantry if you are caught in a infantry fight while you are on it you will be on trouble, especially if for some bad case you are facing spears/pikes; in that case you will get destroyed very fast if you don't do something).

@jfood:

Yes, that's a problem with the way formations work. If you give more cohesion there's this huge problem with flank exposition by units. It happens also with patch 3 without any mods (because CA already improved a little cohesion, also if not yet fully) so the developers are aware of the issue (even because in the forums every day there's somebody that talks about it) so let's hope they will resolve it in the next patch.

As for flaming javelins, they were good at killing elephants, yes, but they were also unrealistic given to everybody. I thought about giving them only to certain selected factions because flaming javelins actually existed in that period, it is only that I have to do a little of a research on to whom is more appropriate to give them (or even decide it with gameplay in mind).

[Master Necromancer]

@Master Necromancer:

I'm becoming mad on trying to alter that damn Diamond formation to be larger. It seem I cannot find where the formations are stored to try to change them.

For what it concerns the effects I changed the bonuses on Diamond formation to be focused on anti-cavalry and IMO it works even better in this way because it balances quite nicely against Flying Wedge used by Melee Cav that it is instead an anti-infantry formation with a penalty on speed. With the changes you must beware when you use the various formations because they expose the units weakness along increasing the specific benefits (for example Diamond increases even more the capability of anti-cav of shock cavalry but given the penalty vs. infantry if you are caught in a infantry fight while you are on it you will be on trouble, especially if for some bad case you are facing spears/pikes; in that case you will get destroyed very fast if you don't do something).

That sounds pretty ing awesome actually.

Gonna start a new campaign today and see how it all works out.