Greek Clasiccal Hoplite vs Theurophoroi

[Satrio Eko]

As the title says, which one will win if they have same stats, experience, and weapon & armour upgrade? i'm playing as pontos and i have access to both units, i wonder which one should i use

[athanaric]

I don't know what will happen in a straight one on one unit fight, but my money is on the Hoplites. Classical hoplites are better armoured/shielded and have slightly better morale (and discipline IIRC) and a higher charge bonus. Thureophoroi are more flexible with three javelins each and more stamina. So one is more of a defensive unit while the other has a more mobile role, e.g. covering difficult terrain quickly, or securing the flanks of the hoplites or pikemen.

[Entropy Judge]

As the title says, which one will win if they have same stats, experience, and weapon & armour upgrade?

If they have the same stats, then it doesn't matter, battles should (theoretically) split 50/50. Also, you're asking a flawed question - whether a Thureophoroi or Hoplitai would win in a fight against each other is only relevant insomuch as you actually fight the other unit frequently; what is more pertinent is how the two units fare in a variety of combats against a variety of units in varied terrain. In any case, the correct answer is, "You should use both." Hoplitai have slightly better Defense, better Morale, a better Charge, and more Mass, which makes them a more solid line unit you use for pinning or assaulting other units. Thureophoroi are Hardy and have a missile weapon, which lets you use them as flankers and fire teams to support your main line, much like Spear-armed Peltastai. (For the record, if you just sent the two units with equal XP/Upgrades charging at each other, the Hoplitai should win - they have better Armour and a larger Shield, better Morale and more Discipline, so although they will tire more quickly, taking casualties and being tired won't affect them as much, and the Thureophoroi should rout first, in general. If the Thureophoroi are able to make throws with their javelins and force the Hoplitai to chase them, it opens up the possibility of a Thureophoroi victory. And, of course, talking about more units than one-unit-on-one-unit combat makes it virtually impossible to determine a clear winner, since there is a variety of tactics to use which can tip the scales in one sides favour.)

[Boriak]

Who cares which one is better. Do what I did and recruit both. EB offers you the biggest variety of units imaginable. Embrace it.

[yuezhi]

I tried that and it didn't work. Ever tried recreating Hannibal's all Iberian/Balearic/Gallic/African army minus those pesky Punic citizens? It doesn't work with only 20 unit slots

[Satrio Eko]

so, i should use both units? okay then
Time for battle!

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Classical Hoplites are heavy line infantry - Thureophoroi are flank infantry. Apples and oranges really.

The original Greek infantry lineup was Classical Hoplites in the line, Heavy Skirmishers on the flanks, Akontistai (light skirmishers) out in front or in reserve.

One of the later Greek lineups (I think used by Corinth which had been under heavy Macedonian influence) was a Greek copy of the Macedonian system - Greek Pikemen in the line (replacing hoplites), Thureophoroi on the flanks (replacing heavy skirmishers) and Heavy Skirmishers out in front or in reserve (replacing akontistai).

So the Thureophoroi, if engaged against Classical Hoplites, should be taking them in the flank or rear after the hoplites have been pinned down in the front by a line unit - rather than going head to head with them. For the Thureophoroi, a head on attack might work OK against poorly armoured Levy Hoplites or Ekdromoi Hoplitai (Greek Light Hoplites), but not against Classical Hoplites.

[Satrio Eko]

so basically, thureophoroi are flankers and hoplitai are line infantry. should use more thureophoroi to flank & kill those damned Agyraspides

[athanaric]

so basically, thureophoroi are flankers and hoplitai are line infantry. should use more thureophoroi to flank & kill those damned Agyraspides

For that specific task, Cappadoccian Hillmen are better (more javelins and AP). Thurephoroi are more of a generalist unit. They are probably best against skirmishers and light cavalry.

[Principe Alessandro]

Theurophoroi are simply peltasts with heavier armour, bigger shield and a spear as their main weapon. They are more flexible but I prefer to place them between the hoplites and the peltasts in the battle line, peltasts are simply better flankers and more suited for offensive operations behind the enemy lines, they are also more suited to assist your cavalry.

When I advance in the game with Koinon Hellenon I place Thorakitai in the centre, Theurophoroi between the flanks and the center and in the flanks the peltasts.

[Boriak]

When I advance in the game with Koinon Hellenon I place Thorakitai in the centre, Theurophoroi between the flanks and the center and in the flanks the peltasts.

When I advance in the game with Koinon Hellenon, first line of infantry are Thureophoroi, the second line Thorakitai, the third line Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai and Spartans. If KH was able to adapt to modern warfare of the time, they would have seen the power of the checkboard formation and adopt it themselves. I also make a point not to use the sarissa phalanxes with KH.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

When I advance in the game with Koinon Hellenon, first line of infantry are Thureophoroi, the second line Thorakitai, the third line Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai and Spartans. If KH was able to adapt to modern warfare of the time, they would have seen the power of the checkboard formation and adopt it themselves. I also make a point not to use the sarissa phalanxes with KH.

Interesting, so you use the Greek infantry units like 'imitation legionaries' and copy Polybian Roman tactics.

I use Greek troops like that, but only when playing as Rome, and recruiting Greek units as allies - not when playing as Koinon Hellenon.

[Principe Alessandro]

When I advance in the game with Koinon Hellenon, first line of infantry are Thureophoroi, the second line Thorakitai, the third line Epilektoi Hoplitai, Thorakitai Hoplitai and Spartans. If KH was able to adapt to modern warfare of the time, they would have seen the power of the checkboard formation and adopt it themselves. I also make a point not to use the sarissa phalanxes with KH.

Well if Greek poleis had retained their independence over the Roman rule probably they would adopt the roman tatctics, but the Thureophoroi and the Thorakitai were created to complement the pike phalanx and in fact the classical hoplites almost disappeared leaving initially the iphicratide hoplites and the pike hoplites to hold the centre of the battle line. So I tend not to use the Spartans, Epilektoi and the Classical Hoplites as I progress through the game save the Thorakitai Hoplitai.

So maybe for the sake of historical accuracy in the third line it is better to have only the thorakitai hoplitai.

Anyway generally old style hoplites should be replaced also because they don't really complement with the theurophoroi or the thorakitai, I tend to use them with peltasts and akontistai, while the pike phalanx works well with them.

Agreed - but the only problem with that is the vulnerability of peltasts to the enemy's heavy cavalry, which will chew them up as heavy skirmishers don't have spears and are lightly armoured. Koinon Hellenon tends to be a bit short of heavy cavalry of its own to counter the Macedonian heavies, and their light cavalry doesn't always succeed in diverting their attention.

Theurophoroi do have spears and can therefore cope with a heavy cavalry charge.

Well I agree that charges by the heavy cavalry can cause a lot of damage to the peltasts but if you keep them close to your main battle line with the Theurophoroi or the Thorakitai or send them together to support each other I think that still you have enough chance to beat back the Macedonian heavies.

Or when is possible to play defensive as much is possible placing the peltasts behind the main line.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Peltasts are simply better flankers and more suited for offensive operations behind the enemy lines, they are also more suited to assist your cavalry.

Agreed - but the only problem with that is the vulnerability of peltasts to the enemy's heavy cavalry, which will chew them up as heavy skirmishers don't have spears and are lightly armoured. Koinon Hellenon tends to be a bit short of heavy cavalry of its own to counter the Macedonian heavies, and their light cavalry doesn't always succeed in diverting their attention.

Theurophoroi do have spears and can therefore cope with a heavy cavalry charge.

[athanaric]

Considering the OP is playing as Pontos though, he doesn't have access to all those fancy spearmen. He'll have to stick with Classical Hoplites and Thureophoroi, in combination with pikemen (or Pandas, if he's a glutton for punishment). I see why you forgo the use of Classical Hoplitai as KH in mid- to late campaign, and I actually do the same (except for the regional variants, like Syracusans and Spartans), but this isn't an option with Pontos.
Also, the Pontic skin of Classical Hoplites is very pretty, which for me is another reason to use them when playing that faction. Personally, I recruit culturally relatively homogenous armies, which means my Pontic royal army has Thureophoroi alongside pikemen, while my Pontic Greek army has Hoplitai and Peltastai as core units.

[Principe Alessandro]

Considering the OP is playing as Pontos though, he doesn't have access to all those fancy spearmen. He'll have to stick with Classical Hoplites and Thureophoroi, in combination with pikemen (or Pandas, if he's a glutton for punishment). I see why you forgo the use of Classical Hoplitai as KH in mid- to late campaign, and I actually do the same (except for the regional variants, like Syracusans and Spartans), but this isn't an option with Pontos. Also, the Pontic skin of Classical Hoplites is very pretty, which for me is another reason to use them when playing that faction. Personally, I recruit culturally relatively homogenous armies, which means my Pontic royal army has Thureophoroi alongside pikemen, while my Pontic Greek army has Hoplitai and Peltastai as core units.

Well in this case hoplitai are even more useless for him, their AOR is limited to some coastal cities of Asia Minor, pikemen are the way to go for the wider AOR while thureophoroi are a good complement for its flanks. Pantodapoi Phalangitai and the Klerouchoi are also more cost efficient having more men per unit and they can hold the line without suffering many casualties unless they are attacked from their flanks.The only faction in EB that needs the Hoplitai is the KH for the lack of good battle line infantry until you can recruit the Iphikratous and Thorakitai Hoplitai or even better if the vanilla Marian Reform kicks the game which makes recruitable the unit that every KH player dreams, the Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai.

[athanaric]

Well in this case hoplitai are even more useless for him, their AOR is limited to some coastal cities of Asia Minor,

I wouldn't say that. A Hoplitai/Peltastai based army (with Sphendonetai and Hippakontistai as support, and later Bosphoran archers and Scythian Riders as well) is ideal for expanding into Greece and the Crimean Peninsula, both of which are regions required for a Pontic campaign victory. These units are recruitale in the Ionian and Pontic regions, which means you can easily resupply any expeditionary forces. Plus Hoplites are very good against cavalry of any kind, while phalangites are a little too sluggish for my taste when fighting against nomadic armies.

pikemen are the way to go for the wider AOR while thureophoroi are a good complement for its flanks. Pantodapoi Phalangitai and the Klerouchoi are also more cost efficient having more men per unit and they can hold the line without suffering many casualties unless they are attacked from their flanks.

That's true, but more relevant for the southward/eastward push against AS and Ptolies. Pikemen are more difficult to recruit and use the farther you go west, unless you have access to Carthaginian pikemen, Pezhetairoi, Deuteroi Phalangitai, or KH Phalangitai - none of which are recruitable by Pontos.
Granted, for the initial conquest you can use phalangites, especially when facing really dangerous infantry-heavy factions like Makedonia, Rome, or Carthage, but they'll be depleted before long, whereas Hoplitai and other "Southern Greek" unit types are recruitable in pretty much any Greek province and will serve you well as local armies.

Interestingly, I use Hoplitai very often when playing as non-Greek factions such as Romani, Suebi, Sauromatae, or Saka. The former have good use for them because of their relative lack of mid-tier factional spearmen and their Mediterranean-centric interest sphere, while the latter three can use Hoplites because of their lack of factional armoured (arrow-proof!) infantry. The Saka even get a unique version.

[Principe Alessandro]

I wouldn't say that. A Hoplitai/Peltastai based army (with Sphendonetai and Hippakontistai as support, and later Bosphoran archers and Scythian Riders as well) is ideal for expanding into Greece and the Crimean Peninsula, both of which are regions required for a Pontic campaign victory. These units are recruitale in the Ionian and Pontic regions, which means you can easily resupply any expeditionary forces. Plus Hoplites are very good against cavalry of any kind, while phalangites are a little too sluggish for my taste when fighting against nomadic armies.


That's true, but more relevant for the southward/eastward push against AS and Ptolies. Pikemen are more difficult to recruit and use the farther you go west, unless you have access to Carthaginian pikemen, Pezhetairoi, Deuteroi Phalangitai, or KH Phalangitai - none of which are recruitable by Pontos.
Granted, for the initial conquest you can use phalangites, especially when facing really dangerous infantry-heavy factions like Makedonia, Rome, or Carthage, but they'll be depleted before long, whereas Hoplitai and other "Southern Greek" unit types are recruitable in pretty much any Greek province and will serve you well as local armies.

Interestingly, I use Hoplitai very often when playing as non-Greek factions such as Romani, Suebi, Sauromatae, or Saka. The former have good use for them because of their relative lack of mid-tier factional spearmen and their Mediterranean-centric interest sphere, while the latter three can use Hoplites because of their lack of factional armoured (arrow-proof!) infantry. The Saka even get a unique version.

Well, I agree with you but frankly the situation of Pontos in Greece and the Crimean peninsula is roughly the same as the one you face with Koinon Hellenon at the initial stages of the game, there is no alternative but anyway in the Crimean peninsula you are overestimating their usefulness, until now I never had any problem to stop heavy cavalry charges even with levy spearmen, there are also good foot archers there. Nomad armies are really easy to defeat because they haven't units that are good in holding the ground so they can win only attacking with heavy cavalry and horse archers. A combination of levy spearmen and foot archers is enough to hold the ground against the nomads, doryphoroi pontikoi supported by bosphoran or scythian archers are a cheap alternative if you are just looking at defending against the nomads, in Greece I agree with you, basically there isn't any recruitable infantry good at holding the line but anyway like I have already said you use them only because there is no alternative.

[Brihentin13]

When playing as KH or Camillan/Polybian Rome, I like to get tricky and a do a REVERSE checkerboard formation. Bear with me here. If you place your super heavy line up front, what you've created is a more mobile version of the macedonian system, replacing sarissae with good ol' fashioned hoplites. These guys can "tank" essentially, leaving your quicker second and third lines to tear up flanks or plug up holes as needed. It never made sense to me to leave the slowest units as a reserve.

[Boriak]

So I tend not to use the Spartans, Epilektoi and the Classical Hoplites as I progress through the game save the Thorakitai Hoplitai.

I was talking about FM units. Can't really change them so I stick them in the back, ready to act the same way as Triarii were suppose to: act as a hoplite phalanx and cover the retreat of the first two lines if the battle goes awry. They are also a handy reserve to send against flank attacks by cavalry.