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  1. #1

    Default English Independence

    You've heard of Plaid Cyrmru and the Welsh independence movement, the Scottish Nationalists and the Scots independence movement...

    you'd think that thats all there is to britain, but believe it or not, there is a party out there willing and proud to stand up for ENGLAND'S rights as a sovereign nation in the union as well! yes indeed, the English Democrats a conservative type party who seem to have only 3 goals. remove the UK from europe, give England a national parliament equal in power to scotlands, and make St Georges Day a public holiday



    i was directed by a labour friend of mine to this rather amusing speech of theirs...
    i'm posting it here to read, but believe me, its much much better to listen and laugh... the accent alone is worth it

    Speech by Garry Bushell, a british (english!) TV presenter, Columnist and English Democrat Member, he stood for election as an MP in South Staffordshire (and lost)

    http://englishdemocrats.org.uk/images/bushell.pdf
    http://englishdemocrats.org.uk/media.php
    please, just watch it!!! lol

    Are there any English people in tonight?

    Can we talk a bit about what it means to be English?

    A friend of mine, Cass Pennant, sent me an email on St George’s Day. I’ve still got it on my phone. It says: “There is a word that means more to me than any other, some say now a forbidden word: That word is ENGLAND!” And isn’t that right?

    The English are the only people in the world who are told that it is wrong to celebrate our history and heritage. Tony Blair, who is Scottish, gave the Scots a Parliament stating rightly that they are a “proud and historic nation”. But his Deputy, John Prescott, who was born in Wales, is on record as saying “There is no such nationality as English.” Have you ever heard anything so absurd?

    Prescott and Blair tried to chop England up into nine regions, with expensive talking shop assemblies, regional flags and identities; all the better to ram us into the Euro-mincer. Voters rejected them but they’ll keep on trying. Blair has a vested interest in denying the English our own parliament of course – he’d never get elected in England. But this disdain for everything English that infects our rulers runs deeper than that. George Orwell, the great patriotic socialist, detected it back in the 1930s when he wrote that "England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their nationality."


    Partly this was down to the guilt of Empire, and partly it stemmed from the influence amongst the Oxbridge elite of a powerful group of traitors who preferred Stalin’s Russia to their own country. Now their descendents want to dissolve us into the EU after falling out of love with a succession of foreign tyrants from Castro to Mao to Osama Bin Laden via the Irish Republican Army. It’s the Guardian mentality: England is always in the wrong, no matter what murderous rogue we are up against. But are they right? In fact the English have far less to be ashamed of that other European nations. We aren’t as militaristic as the Germans or as xenophobic as the French.

    The Royal Navy sank the slave trade and the British empire is remembered with affection everywhere it touched.

    These **********ing fools don't even know the roots of their own radicalism. For every Francis Drake in English history there was a Wat Tyler. For every Wellington there was a Captain Swing. Military achievement shaped our self image.

    The stout Yeomen of England have been beating off invaders for centuries. We saw off Bonaparte, smashed the Spanish Armada and stood alone against Hitler. But England gave the world parliamentary democracy and the trade unions too. We are strong-willed people, rightly proud of our free speech and tolerance. Our defining national characteristic is "constructive bloody-mindedness" according to Keith Waterhouse. Which is why most of us refuse to take Europe seriously. European? Never. I was born English and I will die English.

    To be English is to be part of the world's richest culture. From this sceptred isle sprang talents as diverse as Kipling and Chaplin, Dickens and Shakespeare, Nelson and Joe Strummer. In every field, in every era, the evidence of English greatness is there for all to see, from the enduring genius of Elgar to Kelly Holmes notching up a double gold at the Olympics.

    As Ian Dury once sang: "There are jewels in the crown of England's glory, too numerous to mention, but a few." We made not be world champs in much but it was England which gave the world football, cricket, rugby, tennis, the Beatles, The Who, Benny Hill and Frank Bruno. As a people we are not given to chest beating. Reserve and restraint are as much English qualities as inventiveness and enterprise. But we do resent the way Englishness is sneered at by the chattering classes. Whether your England is summed up by a bowler hat or a pit helmet, punk rock or Morris dancers, there are few national tapestries as rich as ours.

    My England is bubble and squeak and foaming pints of Boddingtons. It is Les Dawson and Barbara Windsor, Max Miller and Page Three. My England is pie and mash and Aston Martins, Derby day and Arfur Daley, Mods and Suedeheads, Lennie McLean and Carry On films. My England stretches from Dennis Skinner to Roger Scruton, from Peggy Mount to Beki Bondage. It's Blackpool beach, Charlie Drake, Charlton Athletic FC, roast beef, imperial measurements and vindaloo. It's defiance. Whether it be King Alfred standing up to the Vikings, Colonel H at Goose Green, or the Metric Martyrs giving the finger to Brussels. No-one likes us! We don't care!

    As an Englishman I don’t hate other nationalities but I want to preserve and build on MY heritage. I want it recognised and I want the right to celebrate it one day a year. Is that much to ask? Of course not. Red Ken gave St Patrick’s Day a subsidy of £100,000 from London tax payers. You know what he gave St George’s Day? That’s right, ****** ALL. In half the country you can’t even get a pub extension. But we don’t need Ken and we certainly don’t need his approval. He’s the freak. Being patriotic is normal and healthy, hating your own country is perverse. It’s up to us to make a stand for England’s green and pleasant land.

    If you are English you know what to do on April 23rd. Turn off the telly and get down the pub, preferrably in a fine Longshanks shirt. As Chesterton wrote: "St George he was for England and before he slew the dragon, he drank a pint of English ale out of an English flagon." Enjoy yourself on St. George's Day. And remember, there will always be an England.

    notice he makes no mention of gordon brown, who's even more scottish than blair, and his demands for british unity and britishness.
    as for blair being scotish, by my calucations, he spent about 2 or 3 years of his life living in scotland... and actually grew up in Durham...

    personally, english i may be, english born and bred. but i serve britain. my Queen is not the Queen of Scotland, nor the Queen of England, but the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain. her Royal navy which i love, and her British Army which i admire are as much a result of my scottish and wlesh brothers, as they are of england. was not wales the home of the Yewbow that defeated the french, is not scotland the heart of the navies current shipbuilding program?
    Do not socttish and welsh and irish and even commonwealth troops serve our Queen and Country as proud and loyal British soldiers?
    England, yes, a nation with a fine history, a nation to be proud of, but Britain is my country, and tis britain who an empire too... tis britain who made us what we are, a nation forged from the fires of union, a nation greater than the sum of its parts a nation strong because it united. United we stand, and divided we fall.

    having said all that, i agree with one tiny part of their demands
    i want to see St Georges day recognised. I've been in Wales on St Davids day, and we all know the irish love St Patrick (though i cannot speak for the Scots...) i want to see all 4 saints days recognised as official public holidays in the 4 respective nations of our union.

  2. #2
    Logue's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: English Independence

    I can't help but say good post, whilst i would like to be independant i am fully aware of the advantages of the UK.

    St. Andrew's Day could become a national holiday up here but the small print is that one holiday elsewhere would be removed.

  3. #3

    Default Re: English Independence

    Well, he made one point worth noting, Scottland have their own parliment...despite being able to enter the British parliment, they have their own school system, their own public holidays, England gets zilch, nothing, nil, rien de'tout. Of course I could now go on a rant about France being so damn liberal and communist, but I won't because its off topic. The problem is, England isn't a country, there are three nations in The British Ilses. Scottland, Ireland and Britain, scottland just happens to have a place in British parliment. Even wales has a nationalist party, unique public holidays and its own language, England is not a nation, it is a nothing.

    And before anyone shouts at me for being so nation-proud, im in Jersey, which is less a part of Britain then Scotland is.

  4. #4

    Default Re: English Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by silver guard View Post
    Well, he made one point worth noting, Scottland have their own parliment...despite being able to enter the British parliment, they have their own school system, their own public holidays, England gets zilch, nothing, nil, rien de'tout. Of course I could now go on a rant about France being so damn liberal and communist, but I won't because its off topic. The problem is, England isn't a country, there are three nations in The British Ilses. Scottland, Ireland and Britain, scottland just happens to have a place in British parliment. Even wales has a nationalist party, unique public holidays and its own language, England is not a nation, it is a nothing.

    And before anyone shouts at me for being so nation-proud, im in Jersey, which is less a part of Britain then Scotland is.
    You try saying that to people in Central / Northern ENGLAND and you may end up in hospital.

    No such country as England? I hope your just playing the fool there. Who taught you geography at School?
    Even the French don't say such crap!

    I guess it shows how you Jersey Folk just don't like the English much but heres how it works:

    Scotland is a nation
    Wales is a nation
    England is a nation
    All togeter make Great Britain or the UK.

    The only reason it may seem to far off Jersey folk there is no 'Nation' as England is because the Labour party is mostly Scottish and don't want the us to have our own democracy but pandered to their own countries instead.
    Its ok for Scots and Welsh to have their own thing and come to Parliament in England but we can't go to the Scottish Parliament or the Welsh Assembly and have our say there!

    But you see it didn't matter before as Britain combined Welsh, English and Scottish as one. But all of a sudden 'Devolution' Came along (Thanks for that one Blair) and all of a sudden Britains Fragmented again.

    Its a shame because Scotland is so proud of itself and has its own adverts, newspapers all with Scotland beaming proudly out etc etc But all England gets is boring Britain stamped across everything.
    The Daily Mail is about the closest thing Englands got for a mouthpiece!
    Surely someone out there will change things for the better.

    As for someone asking why Scotland wants Independance its quite simple and comes in three letters:

    OIL!

    Of North Sea oil in the UK sector almost all of it is in Scottish waters! This is something the Scots have been howling on about for a while. I should know I actually work out there!
    We English only have the Gas Rigs (Mostly off East Anglia and Lancashire) to play with but the Scots have oil and coal (which they would 'consider' producing again if given independance).
    Last edited by Sir Hawkwood; January 03, 2007 at 06:54 AM. Reason: Update

  5. #5
    imb39's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: English Independence

    As has been said in many other threads already, individually we would be considerably weaker. As to those who think England is a non-entity... Well I simply beg to differ. I am both English and British. Economically, England dominate and, yes, subsidise the other two countries in many ways, though England has made extensive use of the natural resources (as part of the United Kingdom); it is a two way benefit. Scots have benefitted England since the union, the Welsh since they were annexed. Northern Ireland (and, historically) Ireland have also played their parts in helping England (as part of the UK).

    No, anyone who regards the other countries as leeches, totally misunderstands the relationships and benefits each component part of the Union has.

  6. #6

    Default Re: English Independence

    silver guard

    the english DON'T want a parliament. we want it more than we wanted those absurd regional assemblies, but we're quite happy with Westminster generally speaking (according to polling data over the last few years)

    the scots wanted a scottish parliament, because a lot of things in scotland are different from england, and they wanted a body to oversee that and their own interests. fair enough...
    we don't face those issues (and neither did wales really). we're quite ok with westminster, though a great many would like to see only Enghlish Mps allowed to vote on those issues that only affect england, or no scots allowed to vote on bills only aimmed at england and wales (etc).

    its no secret that tutition fees in england passed by the votes of scottish and welsh MPs who it didn't affect.


    as for public holidays logue

    scotland had a holiday in early august, and england had one in late august, and i dont know the reason for either of them lol...

    i'd cheerfully lose that day if it saw 23rd April recognised.
    Last edited by the Black Prince; September 16, 2006 at 03:38 PM.

  7. #7
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: English Independence

    I might point out, tBP, that Scottish and Welsh MPs don't make up even nearly half of the British Parliamentary body, so that is hardly true.

    Anyway; an English Parliament would take us not down the route of devolution but rather, Federalisation. Do we want to be a federal body?

  8. #8

    Default Re: English Independence

    tuitions fees, if only english MPs had voted, would have failed, is the point i was making, it passed because the scottish and welsh MPs had no problems towing party lines, because it didn't affect them...

    fedceralism may be a way to preserve our union rather than see it desolved altogether into small petty kingdoms and republics.

  9. #9
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: English Independence

    Do you really think the Union would break up, repealing the two Acts of Union (1707 and 1801) as well as giving Wales back and losing the Prince of Wales? No chance, I'm afraid, because they need us more than we need them; there is no profit and a lot of loss to them in the union failing.

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    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    Default Re: English Independence

    I can't help but say good post, whilst i would like to be independant i am fully aware of the advantages of the UK
    I honestly can't see why scotland would want to be independant. There are far more good reasons than bad to stay with the UK.

  11. #11
    Logue's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: English Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwaho
    I honestly can't see why scotland would want to be independant. There are far more good reasons than bad to stay with the UK.
    Well for me it would be the ability to stand on our own 2 feet economically, and as far as i see it there is nothing wrong with wanting to provide for yourself and not having to depend on other countires. Since as people have rightly said the bulk of the UK economy and industry is based in england, and there is virtually none left in scotland all the shipping and heavy industry has gone.

    tBP, as for the studant fees the same could be said for the poll tax, we got it and england didn't.
    Last edited by Logue; September 17, 2006 at 06:52 AM.

  12. #12
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: English Independence

    Most Scots don't want to be independant for exactly that reason, but they want a limited autonomy, as they have, but even less limited and more akin to the US federal system.

  13. #13

    Default Re: English Independence

    i'm pretty sure it was in the news recently... yes it was...
    More Scots now favour living in an independent nation than remaining part of the United Kingdom, according to a poll that appears to show devolution has fuelled independence support in Scotland. A YouGov poll, commissioned by The Sunday Times, finds that 44% of Scots want independence, compared with 42% who favour continued rule from Westminster. The poll shows support for independence has almost doubled since 2000, a year after the founding of the Scottish parliament. Devolution at that point seemed to have damped down nationalist feeling, with ICM finding only 23% of Scots favouring full independence.

  14. #14
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: English Independence

    You couldn't, however, stand on your own two feet; nothing to attract businesses to you. You'd fall flat; Scotland hasn't got the industry it needs; it'd need to be even more subsidised than Ireland is.

  15. #15
    Logue's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: English Independence

    I think we could, industry can easily be built up. Its not as impossible as people think, it would just require alot of action.

  16. #16

    Default Re: English Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Logue View Post
    I think we could, industry can easily be built up. Its not as impossible as people think, it would just require alot of action.
    know this is an old thread but was looking through stuff and have to give my 2 cents
    i believe scotland should really look at independance and dont let rubbish scare tactics from english/other scots blind you..
    the fact is that europe is the big dog now and in reality scotland and wales are silent because they have no real voice there..
    england is like your mother who wont let u grow up by telling you stories abt the boogie man..
    being independant does not mean severing all ties with your neighbours
    if cyprus can be a euro state surely scotland can

  17. #17
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: English Independence

    And a drastic lowering of wages and worker conditions.

  18. #18

    Default Re: English Independence

    WHEN Scotland get their complete Independance and WHEN Nortern Ireland is given back to the Republic of Ireland then England can have their independance

  19. #19

    Default Re: English Independence

    if, my friend, if...

    Logue, scottish ship building survives for one reason, the MOD. If scotland leaves, the BAE will have to pull all the Royal navies work from the Clyde shipywards if it wants to keep the contracts
    thats 4 landing support ships, 5 destroyers, 2 aircraft carriers, and glasgows entire ship building industry down the pan...
    i'm sure the people in plymouth, portsmouth and barrow-in-furness will be happy though...

    there are plenty of other companies that will up and leave if scotland is no longer supported by english industry and economy. scotland as part of the union is more attractive to business than scotland on its own can ever be.
    and once the north sea oil and gas reserves run out... well thats bye bye scottish economy...

    industry can be built up, but the period of economic hardship you'd suffer first would destroy yourselves, because you wouldn't have anythnig to attract new businesses there

  20. #20
    Civitate
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    Default Re: English Independence

    How can Northern Ireland be given back to the Republic of Ireland when:

    a) It was never part of it.
    b) The majority want to stay with the UK.

    Ultimately, the desire to break up the UK is ludicrous. All countries benefit from it, and the political and social upheaval it would cause is enormous, not to mention the potential economic disasters.
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