Hoplite phalanx and iconic feel

[Demetrios of Messene]

Currently CA are looking into performance issues to be followed by balancing issues and so on. This is a reasonable priority list. In the meantime, people are complaining about various kind of issues with various degrees of importance. I created this thread in order to raise my own not-so-critical complaint, which seems not to bother that many people, yet I felt I had to put it in writing:

It has been confirmed by J.Lusted that the hoplite phalanx is bugged. He did not explain how it is intended to be fixed, but I assume it will involve the mechanic that drops the phalanx formation upon an attack order and engagement with the enemy. This will be much welcome fix, but is it enough?

My understanding is that CA is aiming for fun and diversity above historical accuracy, which is fine with me. For example, this is why we have the Iceni and the Greek cities as playable factions. The iconic unit of the Greek cities is the hoplite phalanx; even though its use was rapidly loosing ground over the pike phalanx during the Rome II timeframe, I very much like to see hoplite phalanxes in-game. I believe most do, because this is indeed an iconic unit of ancient greek warfare. So far so good, but, what about the implementation?

When you look at a hoplite phalanx (in formation) in-game does it live up to your stereotypical expectations?

For me the answer is a big NO. Hoplite phalanxes do not live up to my expetations neither static nor when marching nor when fighting. Here is why:
- J. Lusted has already explained that the hoplon shield cannot be bigger in-game (to at least match the average size of historical hoplon shields) due to clipping issues. This is not such a big deal, but it all adds up in the end.
- The hoplon shield is held like any other shield in-game, i.e. by a central grip. In reality, the hoplon shield was supported both by the arm and hand, which resulted in a unique stance and look of the hoplite soldier.
- In connection to the above point, all animations of the hoplite soldier are typical animations of any spear wielding soldier in-game. There is no diversification. In fact some blocking animations really remind me of a small buckler shield rather than the hoplon shield, which was one of the heaviest shields in use.
- When the phalanx formation is activated the soldiers group into a typical game shieldwall. I really do not see any difference at all between the hoplite phalanx and the shieldwall formation used in-game. Again no diversification.
- When the phalanx formation is activated, the front row starts to resemble a phalanx formation, but the back rows are idly standing up (probably enjoying the deers running carerfree or the predatory birds flying over their heads, which is understandable but not very fun for the human player). This runis immersion.
- The pike phalanx in Rome 2, utilises the front 3 rows of soldiers to engage with pikes, instead of the expected 5. I assume this was done for balancing/ animation purposes. However, as a result the hoplite phalanx, which is expected to have a shorter reach, only shows the front row engaged with the enemy. This is to me the worst feature for the hoplite phalanx.
- I am not commenting on the blobbing issues or the breaking up of formation upon an attack order, because these issues are already ackowledged by CA and are expected to be improved with patches.

As a result of the above, the hoplite phalanx feels boring and uninspired (or "broken" as is the trendy word nowadays). Prior to release J. Lusted confirmed that R:TW did not actually have a hoplite phalanx formation (only a variation of the pike phalanx), which they would improve for TW:R2. It is disappointing to see that CA's "improvement was to make the pike phalanx similar to the small pike phalanx variation of R:TW and the hoplite phalanx similar to a common spear shieldwall...

Is there any hope left for eventually seeing a hoplite phalanx in-game that will feel iconic?

My hopes are little, but I feel better after writing this down. Please post if you share the same feeling on this issue, or if it does not matter to you at all. Please do not compare this issue with other problems, because it is not a contest of which feature is more "broken".

Thank you for reading.

[Durnaug]

The hoplon shield is held like any other shield in-game, i.e. by a central grip. In reality, the hoplon shield was supported both by the arm and hand, which resulted in a unique stance and look of the hoplite soldier.

Totally agree. Tis unfortunate that the modders must again seek the iconic hoplite stance. It terms of engine physics can Warscape emulate the "hoplite push", i.e. if I create a phalanx with lots of depth, can it push through a thinner line?

[vietanh797]

I think they did plan to have a unique Hoplite animation but in the end it was cut off. If you look close enough the inner of Hoplon was very well made with argive grip compare to shield like Scutum which look really plain in the back. That must be for the animation so hoplite can held it like they should but maybe the animation budget was short or just because they don't feel like doing it.
Maybe we should find the designer director and blame him

[karamazovmm]

everything you said is basically we are out of budget ram so some animations will be cut. there are 2 things though that escape that rule one is the size of the shield and the other is phalanx depth, the phalanx depth i take it is only 3 man deep is because of the spacing

[Demetrios of Messene]

Totally agree. Tis unfortunate that the modders must again seek the iconic hoplite stance. It terms of engine physics can Warscape emulate the "hoplite push", i.e. if I create a phalanx with lots of depth, can it push through a thinner line?

Yesterday I played a custome battle with one unit of foot companions vs one unit of oathsworn. I kept the standard depth of the foot companions and ctrl attacked the oathsworn. The units clashed, the foot companions quickly lost cohesion, the fight turned into a blob, and suddenly some foot companions broke through, replaced their swords with pikes and started to walk towards the end of the map while their comrades were trying to catch up. In the meantime, the oathsworn started to converge from the sides slaughtering the foot companions that were lagging behind, until the macedonians routed. So, I assume that a phalanx (pike or hoplite for that matter) can be programmes to push through a thin line, put it will take much effort to proprely implement it.

I think they did plan to have a unique Hoplite animation but in the end it was cut off. If you look close enough the inner of Hoplon was very well made with argive grip compare to shield like Scutum which look really plain in the back. That must be for the animation so hoplite can held it like they should but maybe the animation budget was short or just because they don't feel like doing it.
Maybe we should find the designer director and blame him

The argive grip is there, I have seen it. It serves as a great reminder of everything else we are not seeing in the hoplite phalanx...

everything you said is basically we are out of budget ram so some animations will be cut. there are 2 things though that escape that rule one is the size of the shield and the other is phalanx depth, the phalanx depth i take it is only 3 man deep is because of the spacing

What is the good of having over 700 units if the diversification is so little (I am not looking for 700 diversified units of course, I am looking for an improvement over R:TW rather than a step back with regards to actual unit variety). The pike phalanx being only 3 engaged men deep is a compromise I can live with, but it seems to interfere with the hoplte phalanx fighting style, which has been dumped down.

[karamazovmm]

so? unless you make the game 64bit, thats not going to happen, they go and make the skins, the animations are alright, some units won't have that perfectly debatable historical animation that we think is the right way, that doesn't change the fact that there is a limit to how much you can put in game.

[Demetrios of Messene]

so? unless you make the game 64bit, thats not going to happen, they go and make the skins, the animations are alright, some units won't have that perfectly debatable historical animation that we think is the right way, that doesn't change the fact that there is a limit to how much you can put in game.

I am not talking about combat animations only, I am talking about the overall feel. The tech limitations are one of the parameters that force designers to make decisions involiving the enhancement of some game features at the expense of other features. This is a very challenging process. CA knew they were developing this title for current systems. I assume they were very well aware of the memory limitations.

The feel of the hoplite phalanx is only one link in a long chain. The roman army doesn't fight in a checkerboard pattern (hard to code in the first place) and the legions fight so very similar to "barbarians". In single player campaign, in my few battles against steppe people I did not feel like I was fighting an enemy with a particular mentality, just one more generic enemy. One of CA's AI programmers has explained that they opted for generic battle AI, rather than give special flavour to different culutures; I could be ok with that but now all enemies feel generic, i.e. similar and boring. But on top of that, the units feel all too generic and if it is due to the limitations for animations, then CA's decision is debatable. Sacrifice unit diversity and gameplay mechanics over visuals? This is definetely debatable.

What is not debatable is that the way the hoplite phalanx, and several more units in fact, are depicted in-game does not have historical acuracy or authenticy. We may not know exactly how a hoplite phalanx operated (probably more than one way anyway), but it certainly did not resemble CA's depiction, which I would still happily accept if it promoted gameplay and fun, but it sadly doesn't.

[Doe3000]

You have to admit though, the way the hoplites are depicted are far better than the Hellenistic Phalanx - which appears too thin (only 3-4 ranks deep?) and even worse, they don't actually have pikes until you press the Phalanx formation button, which makes them magically appear in the pikemen's hands.

[vietanh797]

You have to admit though, the way the hoplites are depicted are far better than the Hellenistic Phalanx - which appears too thin (only 3-4 ranks deep?) and even worse, they don't actually have pikes until you press the Phalanx formation button, which makes them magically appear in the pikemen's hands.

Actually the sarissa is a pike that contain two wooden parts joint by a metal part so in any case they fall to an ambush they can use the pike head part and fight like a hoplite. if you look at those guys in travelling they might not much different from a Hoplite since they only have smaller shield and the 2 part of sarissa look like 2 Dory/Doru spears hoplite often carry with them

p/s: I am drunk right now so I not sure I use the correct words pls take it easy if you can't understand my post

[karamazovmm]

it was the same thing before. and you would need another animation showing them fighting with the spears on their left hand, that would look truly entertaining

[jtfjtfjtf]

Less facial animations, more combat animations!

[PT_ReVoLuTioN]

Who needs a good Hoplite anim when you have facial animation which are totally relevant in a 10000 battle XD

[McCarronXLD]

I was wondering about this! Could have sworn hoplons were held differently than is depicted in Rome 2. Hope Rome 2's aesthetics can be fixed one day.. textures, animations, variety, etc. Have a feeling CA won't be the ones to do it, though.