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Thread: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

  1. #21
    King_Porus's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    I'd love to have is back, I think the political aspect of this game needs to be reworked to add depth, but not until they've fixed the game in terms of bugs and broken features.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    The old family tree had plenty of people under it who weren't blood related. The problem with this format is, well, it's unorganized and sucks. Not to mention the constant maintenence is literally a royal pain in the ass. You don't know anything about anyone and your generals get sidelined for four years ALL the time for stupid reasons. Christ almighty, Hannibal lost an eye and didn't take that many months off. Your generals get a little food poisoning and have to take a 4 year hiatus, WTF is that?!?!? I'll tell you what it is, teh devs got lazy! It gets taxing to have to constantly swap generals in and out, in and out, in and out...enough already! I don't know who is who because i can't take the time to be bothered by it, becasue in the next 5 or so turns they'll get a rash wiping their ass and have to take a two year recovery vacation. In the old games I ALWAYS knew who my faction leader was, who the heir was, and where and what they were doing. It use to be a big deal if your faction elader died, but in this game i seriously couldn't tell you a single time when i've known my faction leader died. They have all become robots.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karamazovmm View Post
    again time spend on something that doesn't add anything is time wasted.
    Speak for yourself, pretty lady. In the games I play, I find family trees VERY useful. If you think family trees are of no use to you, or simply a waste of time, not for me--not for many others out there--only they don't make a sound about it [and many don't even participate in this forum], but they can't see anything can be done about it because the omission is now there. Hawooh.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by wumpus View Post
    Speak for yourself, pretty lady. In the games I play, I find family trees VERY useful. If you think family trees are of no use to you, or simply a waste of time, not for me--not for many others out there--only they don't make a sound about it [and many don't even participate in this forum], but they can't see anything can be done about it because the omission is now there. Hawooh.
    Honestly again people, you need to understand this:
    TWC is a minority. You all, at best, represent 5% of TW's playerbase. I might be generous and say 10%, but that's a huge stretch. You just happen to be a really VOCAL minority that has a forum that is actually read by the devs - meaning you put words in the mouth of the majority of players who probably do not share your concerns or ideals. This is a rare case of the "vocal minority, speaks for the silent majority".

  5. #25
    Radzeer's Avatar Rogue Bodemloze
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    I still haven't seen one good or at least semi-reasonable argument against the family tree. Those that don't like it, well don't use it. Simple as that. This "bloodline was not that important in Roman times" argument is just silly.

    I won't hold my breath though that they could add this back easily.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radzeer View Post
    I still haven't seen one good or at least semi-reasonable argument against the family tree. Those that don't like it, well don't use it. Simple as that. This "bloodline was not that important in Roman times" argument is just silly.

    I won't hold my breath though that they could add this back easily.
    I think it's more that people who don't want the family tree in are saying that adding it in, as it stands now, is a waste of CA's time when there are more pressing technical concerns to fix first and bugs, instead of adding in a cosmetic feature that is only going to affect a small number of people. It's far better, from a business standpoint, to address the game's technical issues first.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Also honestly, a family tree isn't needed. A House is not some kind of blood-related thing, it's just a collection of people who all are working under some common name and such. You don't have to be related to each other to belong to the same House.
    Well, if that's your opinion, why do we bother to have factions in out TW games at all? If they are merely a "collection of people under a common name," why bother with such proliferation of silly factions as Julii, Ptolemies, etc.? Why not have battles with simplified sides like "Blue Team vs. Red Team" as they have in World of Tanks where they have tanks of different nations fighting together in the same team against the other team? If you are correct in family trees being nothing but nuisance, then let us do away with ALL factions altogether! Hawooh.

  8. #28
    Wittman's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    IT IS NEEDED!Right now all of my generals are some random guys i dont give a !
    When someone dies you dont care,just zerg another one
    Please check your PM folder-Garb.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    yep really needed!

  10. #30
    Radzeer's Avatar Rogue Bodemloze
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    I think it's more that people who don't want the family tree in are saying that adding it in, as it stands now, is a waste of CA's time when there are more pressing technical concerns to fix first and bugs, instead of adding in a cosmetic feature that is only going to affect a small number of people. It's far better, from a business standpoint, to address the game's technical issues first.
    This would certainly be correct if any reliable number would exist saying that the family tree is a minor issue. All the fuss about it seems to indicate that it is not a cosmetic feature for many. Just like the fuss about optimization. Either both are correct or neither is correct in terms of indicating what people see as problems. I could also say that people do not even get to the family tree problem because their game just does not work.

    I agree though that it is now much harder to bring it back because the political system is not built around it and requires more work than optimizing stuff. My guess is that CA will use the attrition strategy and (1) optimize the hell out of the game for months, (2) address certain gameplay blunders, and (3) finally will try to explain how the family tree would not work well with the current system to ditch the work required to bring it back.

    You and I can disagree on what is important, after all this is just personal preference. But I invite you to visit the Rome I and Medieval 2 AAR sections and see how important family trees are for RP immersion and storytelling. Then see that many AARs have tens of thousands of views. A few go well over 100,000. It is clearly a popular feature - and again, there is no real argument for leaving it out other than lazy programming.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radzeer View Post
    This would certainly be correct if any reliable number would exist saying that the family tree is a minor issue. All the fuss about it seems to indicate that it is not a cosmetic feature for many. Just like the fuss about optimization. Either both are correct or neither is correct in terms of indicating what people see as problems. I could also say that people do not even get to the family tree problem because their game just does not work.

    I agree though that it is now much harder to bring it back because the political system is not built around it and requires more work than optimizing stuff. My guess is that CA will use the attrition strategy and (1) optimize the hell out of the game for months, (2) address certain gameplay blunders, and (3) finally will try to explain how the family tree would not work well with the current system to ditch the work required to bring it back.

    You and I can disagree on what is important, after all this is just personal preference. But I invite you to visit the Rome I and Medieval 2 AAR sections and see how important family trees are for RP immersion and storytelling. Then see that many AARs have tens of thousands of views. A few go well over 100,000. It is clearly a popular feature - and again, there is no real argument for leaving it out other than lazy programming.
    While I would know a family tree is important for an AAR, I could counterargue that as a House is a collection of people under a House, and not really people sharing any common blood, it isn't hard to just do the same for an AAR. You lose direct blood ties, but you can certainly find a way to work around that. It's a popular feature to some, but I can't imagine most people would know it's even missing - it is after all, an entirely cosmetic feature. I didn't even know it was around until medieval 2, and it seemed to have a great habit of breaking in Rome 1.

  12. #32
    Remo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karamazovmm View Post
    I hope not
    Why is it every time I see you respond to something like this, it's always against any type of change to the vanilla game, no matter how little it would effect your personal game play experience.

    You are just constantly shooting down everything people would like added.

    The people want it, the masses WANT the family tree, and CA needs to give it to them.

  13. #33
    Radzeer's Avatar Rogue Bodemloze
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    While I would know a family tree is important for an AAR, I could counterargue that as a House is a collection of people under a House, and not really people sharing any common blood, it isn't hard to just do the same for an AAR. You lose direct blood ties, but you can certainly find a way to work around that. It's a popular feature to some, but I can't imagine most people would know it's even missing - it is after all, an entirely cosmetic feature. I didn't even know it was around until medieval 2, and it seemed to have a great habit of breaking in Rome 1.
    I am not arguing for a specific type of family tree based on blood relation. If they call it a House that is fine as long as that RP element has the same potential and depth to serve the same role as what family trees did in Rome 1 and MTW2. Right now it does not have that (too much random stuff and too short life span for FMs, plus a much simpler retinue/trait system).

    On the rest we disagree, but that's fine.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radzeer View Post
    I am not arguing for a specific type of family tree based on blood relation. If they call it a House that is fine as long as that RP element has the same potential and depth to serve the same role as what family trees did in Rome 1 and MTW2. Right now it does not have that (too much random stuff and too short life span for FMs, plus a much simpler retinue/trait system).

    On the rest we disagree, but that's fine.
    Unfortunately when it comes to lifespans, there's simply no way to really fix that in vanilla.

    Not without a MASSIVE overhaul to account for the game suddenly doubling, or tripling in length. 1YPT isn't popular, but in a 300 year campaign, it's about the most feasible option. Even at 2TPY, they'd have to completely rebalance the game's pacing to account for 600 turns, instead of 300.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    While I would know a family tree is important for an AAR, I could counterargue that as a House is a collection of people under a House, and not really people sharing any common blood
    But isn't it "common blood" that makes someone belong to a House in the first place? Wouldn't you need have a blood tie(be it biological or adopted) with Cornelii, Claudii, Valerii et al. in order to be recognized to be part of the House?

    Or are you talking about the Patron/Client thing?

  16. #36
    Kinjo's Avatar Taiko
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Honestly again people, you need to understand this:
    TWC is a minority. You all, at best, represent 5% of TW's playerbase. I might be generous and say 10%, but that's a huge stretch. You just happen to be a really VOCAL minority that has a forum that is actually read by the devs - meaning you put words in the mouth of the majority of players who probably do not share your concerns or ideals. This is a rare case of the "vocal minority, speaks for the silent majority".
    Your wrong and CA needs to stop removing core features from the game.

    Family trees have been part of the series from the beginning and this unfinished stream lined crap CA tried to replace it with is not cutting it. If any game needs a family tree it's Rome 2, especially with how many faction leaders you will go through by the time your campaign ends. Hell I bet most players don't know who their faction leader is let alone finding out who your faction heir is so you can groom him for command.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinjo View Post
    Your wrong and CA needs to stop removing core features from the game.

    Family trees have been part of the series from the beginning and this unfinished stream lined crap CA tried to replace it with is not cutting it. If any game needs a family tree it's Rome 2, especially with how many faction leaders you will go through by the time your campaign ends. Hell I bet most players don't know who their faction leader is let alone finding out who your faction heir is so you can groom him for command.
    If someone isn't able to read a "Faction Leader: <name>" at the top of the politics screen... or that, I believe, the faction leader (for any House) is always the first one shown on the list...
    Then I believe the heir is whoever is right below, but I haven't checked that to be sure. I only particularly took care of my daimyo in Shogun 2, as if his rank fell behind, I'd get Loyalty penalties. I don't think your Faction Leader did anything special in Rome 1. And in Rome 2, about the only thing special to him is you can't assassinate him.

  18. #38
    SPARTAN VI's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    Honestly again people, you need to understand this:
    TWC is a minority. You all, at best, represent 5% of TW's playerbase. I might be generous and say 10%, but that's a huge stretch. You just happen to be a really VOCAL minority that has a forum that is actually read by the devs - meaning you put words in the mouth of the majority of players who probably do not share your concerns or ideals. This is a rare case of the "vocal minority, speaks for the silent majority".
    You're just making up figures to support your flimsy logic.

    Let's look at real numbers, shall we? Shogun 2 has sold over 7 million units world wide; that figure should suffice for our population size. Now let's take a recent poll of over 1600 users at the official total war site; this is our sample size. We see 90% of users WANT the family tree, and about 10% don't care or don't want it. This allows us to achieve a 2.5% confidence interval at a 95% significance level, which means if we asked this same question to the 7 million TW fans, between 87.5% and 92.5% of them would say YES, they want the family tree back.

    So you need to understand this: a vast majority of total war fans want the family tree to return in Rome 2.

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  19. #39

    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPARTAN VI View Post
    You're just making up figures to support your flimsy logic.

    Let's look at real numbers, shall we? Shogun 2 has sold over 7 million units world wide; that figure should suffice for our population size. Now let's take a recent poll of over 1600 users at the official total war site; this is our sample size. We see 90% of users WANT the family tree, and about 10% don't care or don't want it. This allows us to achieve a 2.5% confidence interval at a 95% significance level, which means if we asked this same question to the 7 million TW fans, between 87.5% and 92.5% of them would say YES, they want the family tree back.

    So you need to understand this: a vast majority of total war fans want the family tree to return in Rome 2.
    ...
    Wait what? How in the world is polling a forum even giving you a logical assumption of everyone else? That's like saying if I asked some people what their favorite colors were, I could then use my tiny sample size to assume the rest of humanity would follow the same guidelines. Which doesn't even make any sense at all.

    Really, TWC has its purpose, but it needs to be reminded - it's a vocal minority. You say you speak for a majority, but you don't. You just happen to be a minority of gamers, who have a pretty close line to the devs, so your voice is the loudest, even if it is not the most important, or the largest. It's like you guys have a megaphone, and everyone else gets to use their normal voice.

  20. #40
    Remo's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Could the Family Tree be patched back in?

    Quote Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
    ...
    Wait what? How in the world is polling a forum even giving you a logical assumption of everyone else? That's like saying if I asked some people what their favorite colors were, I could then use my tiny sample size to assume the rest of humanity would follow the same guidelines. Which doesn't even make any sense at all.

    Really, TWC has its purpose, but it needs to be reminded - it's a vocal minority. You say you speak for a majority, but you don't. You just happen to be a minority of gamers, who have a pretty close line to the devs, so your voice is the loudest, even if it is not the most important, or the largest. It's like you guys have a megaphone, and everyone else gets to use their normal voice.
    Oddly enough, that is exactly how it works.

    It's impossible to poll and ask every single person who has bought the game the same question. Which is what I would assume you would want to have done before you would agree a vast majority wants family trees back. That just isn't going to happen. So like with anything else that requires polling for opinions, you HAVE to do it on the small scale. Just because the poll is answered by a fraction of the population doesn't make their opinion any less valid.

    I could understand being against the poll if it was being held on www.welovefamilytrees.com, but it isn't, so you can't ignore it. Both sides can vote, and if it was close to 50/50, then yea it's pointless. But it's not even CLOSE to 50/50.

    This is how all polls are useful, because no matter how small the amount of people who vote, you still get a general idea of peoples feelings.

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