Awesome mod... but this unit balancing is such a joke!

[meerkatology]

Sorry for vent, just having some major balance issues:

-cataphracts are completely out of hand for how ridiculously cheap they are.
their strength is supposed to be their charge... except even WITHOUT charging they will beat ANY non-AP unit in a melee slug out. Yes they will beat even the elitest of the elite spearmen which are "supposed" to be good against cavalry, 1v1 they beat spartan promochois....i charged them into a group of the best PIKEMEN (seleucid agarypsit or w/e) head on.... and still won a 1v1... even if you triple their cost they are still more effective than all other units. they are supposed to own sword infantry, this is fine, but them owning elite pike/spear units head on its just dumb.

I understand each faction is supposed to have their own overpowered unit, thats why belgae champions are fine and but so many factions have cataphracts and they are just on another level of ridiculousness
whats worse than a 1100 gold and 400 upkeep cataphract? how about cataphracts with 20 ap damage and 47 charge bonus with a 1 hand mace...and a shield? don't get me started on nakharars.

-similar to above, elephant units are way to cheap for how good they are. any elephant unit should at least cost >10k and 3k+ upkeep.

-in general elite spear/pike units just suck for how much they cost. they are completely worthless.

-cavalry in general... their power is appropriate (except cataphracts of course) but they are way too cheap to make. even the best cavalry costs less than half of similar quality units.

-javelin units 100% useless since you can have slingers

-any siege battle takes 10 years even on max speed, they are simply not worth playing

now that im done venting, is there anyway to increase spear units damage to cavalry without going thru every single one in the EDU?

[Budkyns]

I was also surprised by the low price of elephants

[Zydrius]

I was also surprised by the low price of elephants

Well, I have fought only one battle against Carthage forest elephants (which I guess is the weakest) and they have died very fast against my hamata legionaires. So probaly elaphants aren't so tough in 2.6.

now that im done venting, is there anyway to increase spear units damage to cavalry without going thru every single one in the EDU?

You can try tone's lethality submod (they have either incorporated it into new installer and you can find it in RS folder/data/important_stuff or it's somewhre here on the forum), but this will affect ALL units stats.

[LoGaL]

mmmm never seen catas winning against seleucid argyraspides

[Sertorio]

Sorry for vent, just having some major balance issues:

-cataphracts are completely out of hand for how ridiculously cheap they are.
their strength is supposed to be their charge... except even WITHOUT charging they will beat ANY non-AP unit in a melee slug out. Yes they will beat even the elitest of the elite spearmen which are "supposed" to be good against cavalry, 1v1 they beat spartan promochois....i charged them into a group of the best PIKEMEN (seleucid agarypsit or w/e) head on.... and still won a 1v1... even if you triple their cost they are still more effective than all other units. they are supposed to own sword infantry, this is fine, but them owning elite pike/spear units head on its just dumb.

I understand each faction is supposed to have their own overpowered unit, thats why belgae champions are fine and but so many factions have cataphracts and they are just on another level of ridiculousness
whats worse than a 1100 gold and 400 upkeep cataphract? how about cataphracts with 20 ap damage and 47 charge bonus with a 1 hand mace...and a shield? don't get me started on nakharars.

-similar to above, elephant units are way to cheap for how good they are. any elephant unit should at least cost >10k and 3k+ upkeep.

-in general elite spear/pike units just suck for how much they cost. they are completely worthless.

-cavalry in general... their power is appropriate (except cataphracts of course) but they are way too cheap to make. even the best cavalry costs less than half of similar quality units.

-javelin units 100% useless since you can have slingers

-any siege battle takes 10 years even on max speed, they are simply not worth playing

now that im done venting, is there anyway to increase spear units damage to cavalry without going thru every single one in the EDU?

Catraphacts from wich faction ? and in wich campaign or custom battles. In order to changes anything maximum information is required. So campaign, battle dificulty for example is important.

Next, units costs. Cavalry as elephants have low costs in order to make the AI train them. It is assumed that the player will not abuse of this, and if he does, well, then id thats the way he want to play it out so be it.
Elephants were tweaked for 2.6, as in 2.5 specially the seleucid were almost invulnerable.

Javelins, no javelins are not worthless, unless you use them head on against well protected infantry. In 2.6 some movement from missile units is required for the best effects, to the rear or flanks of the target.

[meerkatology]

Catraphacts from wich faction ? and in wich campaign or custom battles. In order to changes anything maximum information is required. So campaign, battle dificulty for example is important.

Next, units costs. Cavalry as elephants have low costs in order to make the AI train them. It is assumed that the player will not abuse of this, and if he does, well, then id thats the way he want to play it out so be it.
Elephants were tweaked for 2.6, as in 2.5 specially the seleucid were almost invulnerable.

Javelins, no javelins are not worthless, unless you use them head on against well protected infantry. In 2.6 some movement from missile units is required for the best effects, to the rear or flanks of the target.

I tested units in custom battles as far as i know stats are same in campaigns for all units except roman legions. I also made sure ai side wasnt doing anything stupid. Battle difficulty set on medium for testing

I play campaign on vh campaign and medium battle i also manually increase my own factions unit costs by 300% to make it more challeging -romans are still super easy so far they just dominate greeks because of how much spearmen suck even when they get silver chevrons. Using BI five emperors - the launcher built in option not the actual mod installation.

Regards to cataprhacts ; tested with roman and parthia/seleucid, nakharars will simply dominate anything period no matter how out numbered they are. Other than like scyth chariots and elephants of course


If cavalry is made super cheap for ai functionality i guess ill have to play with house rules and not have more than four per army or something

[tone]

I tested units in custom battles as far as i know stats are same in campaigns for all units except roman legions. I also made sure ai side wasnt doing anything stupid. Battle difficulty set on medium for testing

I play campaign on vh campaign and medium battle i also manually increase my own factions unit costs by 300% to make it more challeging -romans are still super easy so far they just dominate greeks because of how much spearmen suck even when they get silver chevrons. Using BI five emperors - the launcher built in option not the actual mod installation.

Regards to cataprhacts ; tested with roman and parthia/seleucid, nakharars will simply dominate anything period no matter how out numbered they are. Other than like scyth chariots and elephants of course


If cavalry is made super cheap for ai functionality i guess ill have to play with house rules and not have more than four per army or something

Maybe you need to play on hard or very hard battle difficulty

[dvk901]

It is important....even vital to understand that we have done a TON of research into how factions recruit, why they recruit and what they will recruit....and why they will not. Within the structure and engine we have to work with in RTW, there are only certain ways to 'persuade' factions to recruit the units you want them to so that you have a good challenge and balanced AI armies.

That said, it is a bit premature for someone with 10 posts to say that RS2.6 units stats are a joke, especially when we have been working on this mod and testing it for a very, very long time, and have had help and advice from some of the best modders on this site. I will grant that stats and costs may seem strange at times if you are thinking strictly on the basis of 'what makes sense without any other factors considered'. But there are are numerous other factors involved in the way we configured this mod. Our intention was to make horse culture factions, in particular, actually as nasty and powerful as they were historically. But you have to think out of the box to do this, because RTW Vanilla was an infantry favorable game. The result was that horse culture factions always did poorly, auto-resolved horridly, and were also largely ignored and unplayed because not many mods paid much attention to them. Scythia, Sarmatia, Parthia and the Seleucids all made use of cataphract cavalry, and it was historically feared and powerful. To fight them you'd best bring a tank, because they were a Roman era 'tank' of sorts. That's the reason the Seleucids and the Romans eventually started deploying them, especially in the east, because little could deal with a cataphract effectively except another cataphract.

Now, as to unit costs. First of all, we (actually Tone) discovered that the reason the AI doesn't retrain its units is because the maintenance and retraining costs in RTW\BI were too high. So we adjusted them so that the AI will retrain not only in ALEX, but RTW and BI as well. Where cavalry are concerned, the reason for the low cost is because the AI recruits on the basis of the best bang for its buck........if a unit with 60 guys in it costs 500 denari, and another with 30 costs 500 denari, the AI will NOT recruit the unit it sees as a bad deal. Why not get 60 guys for the same amount? For this reason, a normally configured game with a common sense approach that considers no other affects issues will result in largely all infantry armies. So you have to 'coax' the AI, needle it, prod it to do what you want....even if the way you do it seems to make no sense. And that is cheap cavalry....it may make no sense, but it works.

As said above, it is up to the player to decide whether he\she wants to take advantage of that 'quirk' or not. It's no different than recruiting all 1st cohorts, or all Praetorian armies, or all elite unit armies, or all slingers...or all of whatever you find gives you an unfair advantage over the AI. Heck, you could recruit 8 infantry units and 10 stone throwing machines and probably slaughter every army you face.....but it gets old after a while. So our stats and our configurations mean that the 'player' is often at the bigger disadvantage, and battles and the campaign are harder. We don't mean them to be ridiculous or 'a joke'....just more of a challenge that playing RTW Vanilla or Rome2......(heh, couldn't help myself).

[ur-Lord Tedric]

............. because little could deal with a cataphract effectively except another cataphract...........

The only slightly inaccurate element - for the historic counter to cataphracts was a combination of javelin-armed light cavalry and light infantry - the first to tire them out whilst causing significant damage and the second to exploit their limited vision and mostly hamstring the horses (not so dissimilar to anti-knight practices in a later era).

'Shock cavalry' is really the stuff of myth and legend - just like CA's love of the 'Ride of the Rohirrim' that they have incorporated into Rome2..... :-(

[Risasi]

Forgive him dvk, for he knows not of what he speaks.

I am really enjoying that latest patch, playing as the Armenians. I of course go cataphract heavy and the Seleucid's are giving me terrible grief right now...even though their elephants have been fixed.

[Searry]

I myself was very amused when I let heavy cavalry(Libyan) units slip into my rear and they charged at the allied cohorts. Morale nearly broke but I somehow managed to pull out my Triarii from any fights they fighting, and flank them. At the same time, the enemy pushed on my other cohorts so the battle became a near double envelopment. In the end I managed to win by charging with my Massilian cavalry continuously to the enemy light infantry, make the break, envelop enemy heavy infantry(triple envelope) and dedicate all my allied cohorts to keeping the heavy cav from breaking through from the center. The AI in this mod is so lovely and the battles are amazing and they offer challenges.

[meerkatology]

Reason i do medium for battles is want to see units strength for what they are and not not a group for ai levies having better stats than my legions it just doesnt make sense and there should be better ways to make the game challenging such.

If unit costs were designed for ai recruitment purposes then couldnt each campaign have modified costs specifically for the player's faction such as the rome cqmpaign? So that players would need to make intelligent choices rather than playing by house rules.

I agree horse factions should be hard to deal with but spartan promochois losing to cataphracts in a melee fest without them even charging? The spartans will also lose badly to a group of medium quality volcae axemen

Historically romans had a hard time vs cataphracts best quite the contrary in rs legions are actually the best infantry units to deal with cataphracts due to AP pilums vs no shield , my main gripe was how bad elite spearmen were against cavalry which they are supposed to be strong against

again i am not putting down the mod.... Its the best overall mod ive played for any of the tw's , its just i felt it could have been so much more.

[meerkatology]

Reason i do medium for battles is want to see units strength for what they are and not not a group for ai levies having better stats than my legions it just doesnt make sense and there should be better ways to make the game challenging such.

If unit costs were designed for ai recruitment purposes then couldnt each campaign have modified costs specifically for the player's faction such as the rome cqmpaign? So that players would need to make intelligent choices rather than playing by house rules.

I agree horse factions should be hard to deal with but spartan promochois losing to cataphracts in a melee fest without them even charging? The spartans will also lose badly to a group of medium quality volcae axemen

Historically romans had a hard time vs cataphracts best quite the contrary in rs legions are actually the best infantry units to deal with cataphracts due to AP pilums vs no shield , my main gripe was how bad elite spearmen were against cavalry which they are supposed to be strong against

again i am not putting down the mod.... Its the best overall mod ive played for any of the tw's , its just i felt it could have been so much more.

[Crymson]

Reason i do medium for battles is want to see units strength for what they are and not not a group for ai levies having better stats than my legions it just doesnt make sense and there should be better ways to make the game challenging such.

If unit costs were designed for ai recruitment purposes then couldnt each campaign have modified costs specifically for the player's faction such as the rome cqmpaign? So that players would need to make intelligent choices rather than playing by house rules.

I agree horse factions should be hard to deal with but spartan promochois losing to cataphracts in a melee fest without them even charging? The spartans will also lose badly to a group of medium quality volcae axemen

Historically romans had a hard time vs cataphracts best quite the contrary in rs legions are actually the best infantry units to deal with cataphracts due to AP pilums vs no shield , my main gripe was how bad elite spearmen were against cavalry which they are supposed to be strong against

again i am not putting down the mod.... Its the best overall mod ive played for any of the tw's , its just i felt it could have been so much more.

There are limitations to the game, both general and hardcoded. That said, the unit stats file is fairly easy to modify if you so desire.

On another note, entering with an indignant complaint about the mod is really inappropriate. The developers have put a lot of unpaid time into creating this masterpiece. You could at least be polite and phrase your criticism constructively rather than disparaging the mod.

[dvk901]

One of the reasons it is very difficult to 'customize' unit stats and costs for each faction is because so many units are shared by other, or sometimes all factions.
The Romans are more or less unique in the fact that the majority of their units are theirs alone....but this is not true for other factions. We did customize a few campaigns where we could (Sarmatia, Scythia, Parthia, Seleucid...) but even then, it can only involve the few units that unique to each faction being played.

[meerkatology]

One of the reasons it is very difficult to 'customize' unit stats and costs for each faction is because so many units are shared by other, or sometimes all factions.
The Romans are more or less unique in the fact that the majority of their units are theirs alone....but this is not true for other factions. We did customize a few campaigns where we could (Sarmatia, Scythia, Parthia, Seleucid...) but even then, it can only involve the few units that unique to each faction being played.

this is true

about to try a non-roman faction , hopefully the superbuffed roman legions would pose a challenge to cataphract factions

[Sertorio]

I have nowhere near good results if i charge anything apart the Armenians (which i have not tested yet) head on against pike infantry, or the heavier infantry available.
I have and am playing Seleucid, Parthian regarding cathraphacts and they have never looked like OP units. If they get caught in melee they will just die.

[Risasi]

Armenian Cata archers are pretty tough, but they get chewed up running headlong into phalanx, hoplites, scythed chariots and elephants.

[meerkatology]

Sure if they get surrounded in a sea of infantry but an equal cost batch of cataphracts will beat a equal cost group of spearmen which are supposed to be good vs cavs. Im talking about a straight up melee. And no player with a brain or even the ai will let their cav get surrounded from behind and continue to melee, they move faster than infantry and have more mass to push thru things easily

Again im not saying they are total gods - well except nakharars who are - but cost for cost they will beat things that are supposed to counter them



Also are you making sure ur cav units are meleeing with their secondary weapons?

[tone]

We've already explained why cost for cost doesn't work... in order to encourage the AI to actually recruit some cavalry