The Marian Reforms (or Lack Thereof)

[Crymson]

Many issues in this game have been noted. Here is another.

The Marian reforms were vital to Roman history, both in what they did---create the armies that would make Rome the region's superpower for centuries---but also in what they caused: Rome's civil wars, as the soldiery became loyal to their generals rather than to the state.

In the original Rome, CA acknowledged the importance of the Reforms by setting forth a condition of their occurrence that took quite awhile to achieve. In a display of egregious laziness, Rome 2 has no such requirement at all. Instead, all that is necessary in order to gain access to Marian units is a short chain of research. Yep, that's all. One can blitz to Marian units in well under 20 turns.

This is just another of the game's issues that are caused not by bugs, but rather simply via CA's enduring laziness.

[GaMMwl]

That's just another part of the game that feels too 'gamy'.

[Crymson]

That's just another part of the game that feels too 'gamy'.

CA has gotten lazier and lazier over the past 12 years.

[Valerius Maximus]

i personally don't mind that the reform is part of research, though it might have been better if it was a little further down the tech tree...but then again i want my legions!

[Mhaedros]

IMO its a good thing its only a tech. It gives the player more options, if he wants legionaries in turn 30 its his own choice. I've played 80ish turns with Rome and I'm still using triarii, principes and hastati and will keep doing so until they get boring.

[Cross_]

I like it because it gives the player the power to get it asap or whenever they want.

[redxavier]

Like many things in the design, it follows the approach that things should be given to the player just for playing. The Marian reforms should be earned - and yes, figuring out how to get them should have been a task in itself.

[JaM]

its quite a problem actually... right now, you can have Marian Legions formed by turn 12.. Whole concept of Marius Reforms was conditional on Roman Conquest, it wasnt some technology upgrade, but more of a social,political and military change. And right now, you can get it immediately after you research Maniple system..

[karamazovmm]

its quite a problem actually... right now, you can have Marian Legions formed by turn 12.. Whole concept of Marius Reforms was conditional on Roman Conquest, it wasnt some technology upgrade, but more of a social,political and military change. And right now, you can get it immediately after you research Maniple system..

no its not a problem its a smart decision.

what you want is a script.

you can't even simulate a political and social change that forced military change, aside that if not a script it would be a game on itself, that again can't be made because it would be a boring, extremely annoying game. we westerners are not into visual novels, that again would also be a script

simply put, I don't want to follow a script, marian reforms in rome 1, achieve 24k of pop in a city in italy, wow thats really challenging and brings not only depth but I can see the cries of the senators and patricians on the street claiming for more welfare.

the only possible way to have this as entertaining and it would still be a script, taking away power from the players, is to have realm divide to trigger the reforms, that again would force the players the trigger themselves the realm divide really early. to correct that you will want to add a turn limiter to that, making it more of a script

I don't see gain nor profit

he did not say that at all, you just made it up.

i believe what he say is that the Marian refoms had both causes and effects, while it is now just a click of the button to have professional armies.
it should have been an achievement and a double edged sword, now it is just a button for new units.

it was always a 24k pop trigger for new units, nothing came from it outside new units

[Ebenezer Grymm]

I don't really see the problem.

You're saying that it's not historically accurate to be able to get Marian units so early.

But after (and really even before) the first turn historical accuracy goes out the window anyway. You make your own history. That's what the Total War games are about.

If you don't want those units until later, just don't do the research until later. Problem solved. It's just like using cheats. They're there for the people that want to use them, and if you don't want to use them you don't have to.

[absinthia]

You're saying that it's not historically accurate to be able to get Marian units so early.

he did not say that at all, you just made it up.

i believe what he say is that the Marian refoms had both causes and effects, while it is now just a click of the button to have professional armies.
it should have been an achievement and a double edged sword, now it is just a button for new units.

[Gunfreak]

I don't really see the problem.

You're saying that it's not historically accurate to be able to get Marian units so early.

But after (and really even before) the first turn historical accuracy goes out the window anyway. You make your own history. That's what the Total War games are about.

If you don't want those units until later, just don't do the research until later. Problem solved. It's just like using cheats. They're there for the people that want to use them, and if you don't want to use them you don't have to.

I don't agree, sure I can hold back getting them, but the AI dosn't sucks to be Carthage invading rome, and seeing legionaries, when you are supsoe to see triarii and hastati.

[Johan217]

Moving the tech a bit further down the line wouldn't hurt IMO. But having control over it feels like an improvement over Rome 1, where the Marian event would typically trigger a century too early, often just when I started to build Triarii. Now with the current system, at least I can skip the tech and spend the 2nd century BC with proper Polybian units

[Kipman2000]

I like that it's achieved by research now, rather than when you first reach max city size (like it was in TW:R). One could always debate if it should have been further down the research tree, maybe it should have been taking longer time to research them, but I prefer this system rather than at a specific time or through other means.

One solution could be that the reforms could be the result of several research points (such as military, philosophy and economic). That way they would reflect the fact that the Marian reforms were more than strictly military and would also take longer time to achieve.

[kronpas]

THe choice is in your hands, dont pick it if you dont want it.

[Crymson]

Those of you who are saying that the occurrence of the reforms should be in the hands of the player are ignoring the circumstances that brought them about in the first place. These reforms did not occur because the Senate one day decided they were a good idea. They happened because it was necessary that they happen, and this necessity was the result of various economic and military circumstances. If not for these factors, the Polybian system would have endured. Indeed, the Republic was infinitely more stable with this system than it was under the Marian scheme. It survived for over 200 years because it worked. More, it reflected the ideals of the Republic. Things went rapidly downhill after it was discarded, but then again it was necessary that it be discarded.

In contrast, in Rome 2 the reforms occur as the result of research. That makes precisely zero sense. More, the reforms were a nice goal to work toward. That no longer applies.

Moving the tech a bit further down the line wouldn't hurt IMO. But having control over it feels like an improvement over Rome 1, where the Marian event would typically trigger a century too early, often just when I started to build Triarii. Now with the current system, at least I can skip the tech and spend the 2nd century BC with proper Polybian units

If you were just getting triarii a century into the game, then you were doing something very wrong. That said, mods dedicated to historical authenticity (i.e. all of the major ones: RS2, EB, and RTR) made advancement to the Marian system rightly more involved. If you were playing vanilla, then that's a problem in itself.

[kronpas]

Those of you who are saying that the occurrence of the reforms should be in the hands of the player are ignoring the circumstances that brought them about in the first place. These reforms did not occur because the Senate one day decided they were a good idea. They happened because it was necessary that they happen, and this necessity was the result of various economic and military circumstances. If not for these factors, the Polybian system would have endured. Indeed, the Republic was infinitely more stable with this system than it was under the Marian scheme. It survived for over 200 years because it worked. More, it reflected the ideals of the Republic. Things went rapidly downhill after it was discarded, but then again it was necessary that it be discarded.

In contrast, in Rome 2 the reforms occur as the result of research. That makes precisely zero sense. More, the reforms were a nice goal to work toward. That no longer applies.



If you were just getting triarii a century into the game, then you were doing something very wrong. That said, mods dedicated to historical authenticity (i.e. all of the major ones: RS2, EB, and RTR) made advancement to the Marian system rightly more involved. If you were playing vanilla, then that's a problem in itself.

I did my homework, so thankyou for your lecture. But the way it was portrayed in Rome I made no sense to me either - there is no radical change to the way I manage my large empire, only my troops suddenly upgraded empire-wide. So now aside from the fact that the switch is put into your hands, is there any difference? No.

Now if your empire is gradually changed, like the more you push towards Martian reform, the higher chance your armies aboard go rebellious, the more unstable your Empire becomes etc, your troops getting easier to recruit but their upkeep increased slightly and their appearance becomes less random, etc., I might agree Rome 2's portrayal of legion reform sucks. Otherwise, no.

[Gelston]

Those of you who are saying that the occurrence of the reforms should be in the hands of the player are ignoring the circumstances that brought them about in the first place. These reforms did not occur because the Senate one day decided they were a good idea. They happened because it was necessary that they happen, and this necessity was the result of various economic and military circumstances. If not for these factors, the Polybian system would have endured. Indeed, the Republic was infinitely more stable with this system than it was under the Marian scheme. It survived for over 200 years because it worked. More, it reflected the ideals of the Republic. Things went rapidly downhill after it was discarded, but then again it was necessary that it be discarded.

In contrast, in Rome 2 the reforms occur as the result of research. That makes precisely zero sense. More, the reforms were a nice goal to work toward. That no longer applies.

It makes sense to me. I don't research military unless I have a need. I'll go for economy first. Research isn't something that is instantly decided by the senate, either. It is something researched, that, while it may take 20ish turns... That equals about 20 years. I like the new system better, myself.

[Grimreapo]

I going to write a review once I have done my Legendary campaign but Rome as a faction annoys me greatly thanks to two things:
-Lack of Hardcaps
-Legionaries are too good

Thanks to the fact that the that you get them so soon there is ZERO reason to buy any other unit as they just chew everything up and there is endless limit to them so you dont need anything else, if that is not bad enough they add even better Legionaries who have even better versions of themselves with zero hard caps and that is not getting onto the Praetorians who have an even better versions which again dont have hardcaps. I mean you dont need Auxiliaries, ya know, the guys who made up most of the mid-late Republic AND Imperial Armies who should have been the variety of the Roman faction that different shades of the same unit instead, I mean its not like the Romans themselves sometimes conquered provinces just to get the locals to fight for them...

*sigh* I had to get that off my chest but has for the reforms themselves there is a VERY easy of doing it, get an X amount of Imperium points and they unlock rewarding the player for good play...

[wulfgar610]

It appears CA was working a system were all the level techs would have to be researched before researching the reform that gives Marian style legionaries, and the limitation was dropped in their final design.