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Thread: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.30)

  1. #1

    Default Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.30)

    Introduction:

    Ekpyrosis is a modification of battle mechanism designed for multiplayer battles and campaigns.

    Most of players know that AI/CPU will be always predictable its only matter of time. Real challenge is in game against human player and that mod concentrates on that aspect of game. I dont not plan to adjust battle mechanism to single player mode. Simply some features of mod could be incomprehensible to AI.

    Modification base on my experience in multiplayer battles and campaigns. I will not write here (like many others) that i have created realistic and historical mod.
    In the past i saw many modders who too easily used word "realism" and who never published list of historical sources. I also saw many authors who belived that they reach the Olympus of historical accuracy but they never heard anything about methodology of history. Many of them thought that they were like Prometheus but truly they were next incarnation of Sisyphus.

    It's not mean that i will not base strongly on historical sources in the future. Now that mod is like Decartes's temporary/provisional morality - it's a necessity solution on the road to something much more complicated and reliable.

    I can only say that Ekpyrosis mod is less infantile, more sophisticated than default RTW2 and was tested in multiplayer battles by experienced players.

    I spent many hours on NTW3 battlefields especially in historical battles (HB) which are still the most complicated and sophisticated type of challenge in total war series. I like many ideas typical for NTW3(HB) such as fog of war, strong fatigue system, important role of terrain modifiers, slower movement and few important rules because they change game into quasi simulator.

    I know that typical consumer of mods wants something different but i don't address that work to mass audience. You don't need add reputation points and express gratitude i think that you should save your energy for these modders who really crave for ephemeral fame. More important for me is reliable critique and discussion.

    +
    Current version also contains system of movement and new ranges for ranged weapons which base on sources.


    Main features:

    - Multiplayercentrism mod for multiplayer battles and multiplayer campaigns designed for multiplayer players, tested in multiplayer mode; (mod should work in single player mode but I dont guarantee performance of AI )

    - NEW FOG OF WAR that feature totally change battle mechanism, now scout is important, players can hide maneuvers behind main line, prepare ambushes etc.

    - New system of movement - check new method of speed calculation and sources:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13253704
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13253905
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13254869

    -
    Slower ships with reasonable turn rate

    - Revision of ranged weapon damage

    - Missile weapons with new range - check new method of range calculation and sources:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post13256372


    - New fatigue system for example you cannot make very deep cavalry charges without fatigue penalties, you should plan your cavalry attacks, then give cavalry rest and attack again. No more never ending cavalry charges;

    - New system of morale - for example encircled line formation will
    collapse quite fast

    - Longer fights;

    - Better phalanx mechanism + increased size of phalanx (+50%) - now phalanx size allow you to form a longer phalanx line also phalanx formation works better for example longer phalanx vs phalanx clashes;

    - Important role of terrain modifiers for example you cannot charge through forest such quickly like in default game;

    - Removed some abilities: quick_reload, use_the_whip, precision_shot longer delays for abilities;

    - Stronger town gates now you cannot easily burn gate you should use sige equipment;


    Link to early version:

    http://www.mediafire.com/download/8k...mod_v0.30.pack


    Instalation:
    Remove previous version.
    Download, copy and paste mod file into your data folder;

    Deinstallation:
    Remove mod file from your data folder;


    Rules:

    Sometimes Total War games do not portrait well tactical situation which occurs on battlefield. Game engine has its limitations but there is solution: rules. I played many games with rules and its good solution for these group where players know each other. I suggest 2 rules:
    - do not charge through your units.
    - max 20-25 % missile units in army.

    Recommendations:
    - Mod was designed for large size of units
    - I play with GEM - Graphic Enhancement Mod

    Beta testers:
    Patrykus
    Fanest
    Zaratustra
    Members of Legio Group


    English is not my native language so sorry for possible mistakes.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Ekpyrorsis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Can someone plz post a video of a working phalanx?
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    You can make fast test in game, take 3 phalanx units and give CPU similar 3 phalanx, form line formation on flat terrian, attack - fight should be longer that in default Rome 2. Frontal attack against phalanx is deadly for many units.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    NICE!!!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Phalanxes work better and battles last longer. Game is no longer the same. It requires more tacticks, less clicking

    Video should be available soon.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Today i played battle 1vs2 and we had big clash between phalanxes but decisive battle was on flank where i lost and then my center was routed. I made counterattack with my cavalry group but it was too late. Flanking maneuvers are deadly for line formations. It's looks ok from tactical point of view.

    Patrykus we should try multiplayer campaign soon.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    ok i will test it shortly
    War is Hell, and I'm the Devil!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    my observations after 2v2 battle:
    1. phalanx are too strong
    2. cav could move a bit faster especially light
    3. cav vs cav fight lasted very very long - longer than phalanx vs phalanx


    other that that i dont have any complaints, nice mod- certainly has a promise of much better MP experience than vanila at this statehere is post battle result
    http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/63...F22971D72F9DB/
    Last edited by Fanest; September 12, 2013 at 11:06 AM.
    War is Hell, and I'm the Devil!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Thanks for your small review. It's early version and there will be updates. We need more tests.I can increase light cavalry speed i also think about faster and more effective cavalry charges. Long cav vs cav fight is something new in total war series for example in NTW we had problem with very fast cavalry battles and charge always decided about result of clash. Phalanx is complicated problem. My goal is simple: longer phalanx vs phalanx fight (it works), very strong phalanx vs frontal attacks (it works), vulnerable to destruction by attack on rear and flank (it also works). Phalanx has got important limitation - is only effective in line formation but line formation has got lower mobility than for example units in column formation - it's big disadvantage. When you use phalanx your freedom of action is very limited when you play as Rome you can use more elastic tactics.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    I'd say that units in general would benefit from a small increase in speed, but coming from NTW as you do, I understand what you're trying to achieve.

    Also, does anyone knows how to increase map size in multiplayer battles? Even in vanilla, and specially with this mod, maps feel much too small.
    Last edited by Defensore; September 12, 2013 at 07:09 PM.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    I will check size of maps soon. Map system in Rome 2 has been rebuilt. It's mean that modders first must learn how maps work and then we will know what exactly we can do and how. Map making is deep modding and Rome 2 uses new powerful tool for custom battles: map generator. I would like to play on larger maps but larger maps were more important in NTW (some napoleonic battles took place on large area). Maps in NTW has got size limit 2048x2048 px i don't know anyone who created larger map.
    I know simple solution: a scale - you dont need think that 1 soldier on map presents 1 real soldier it could be a symbol of 3 men (scale 1:3).

  12. #12

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziuk View Post
    I will check size of maps soon. Map system in Rome 2 has been rebuilt. It's mean that modders first must learn how maps work and then we will know what exactly we can do and how. Map making is deep modding and Rome 2 uses new powerful tool for custom battles: map generator. I would like to play on larger maps but larger maps were more important in NTW (some napoleonic battles took place on large area). Maps in NTW has got size limit 2048x2048 px i don't know anyone who created larger map.
    I know simple solution: a scale - you dont need think that 1 soldier on map presents 1 real soldier it could be a symbol of 3 men (scale 1:3).
    Oh, ofc, imagination does help!

    I was most refering to the fact that there's hard any room to maneuver on the maps as they are now, even on a 20v20 battle. More so in a 40vs40 , which I think this mod would suit very well!
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    I can create new experimental version with faster cavalry but in my opinion we will have still controversy in speed parameters. There is better solution we need base on historical sources and on transparent interpretation. I think that i have enought sources to create more reliable relation between movement speed of infantry and cavalry.

    I have confirmation from CA member that they use metric system in game: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?620799

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Dunno how you guys can play multiplayer campaigns right now. The turn times are just insane

  15. #15

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    We are not playing campaign now but we will play soon. We are waiting for CA patch. I'm preparing new version of mod with new movement speed for land units. I also working on methodology of speed calculation.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Method of speed calculation (land units) for coming version part 1

    CA use metric system: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?620799 so length is in meters, velocity/speed in meters per second.

    I. Infantry:

    A. Walk:

    Infantry movement speed can base on sources which give answer how fast roman army did move from point A to B. In my opinion its bad solution because movement on battlefield is different than movement on long range - there are also other problems(modifiers) baggages, length of day, length of march, different stages of march, condition of roads etc. I think that we can focus on typical for roman military steps which give orientations in speed of maneuvers on historical battlefield.

    “Rate of March

    This information was first presented in Elements of the March: "The march cadence is fairly well established. The Roman militari gradu, regular march cadence, was 100 paces per minute, the quick march cadence was 120 paces per minute. The Roman foot was (0.9708 English foot). The pace was 2.5 Roman feet, (29.124"). According to Upton, this is almost exactly the same as the US Army standard at the turn of the century; its pace was (30"), the regular march cadence was 100 paces / minute and the quick march cadence was 120 paces per minute."

    At that rate the army would move 14,562 feet per hour, 2.76 miles per hour. It would take each unit a little over 3 1/2 hours to complete the ten miles between camps. Because of the length of the column, it would take a little over 8 hours from the time the first units left camp until the last of the rearguard arrived at the new camp.”
    http://www.romanarmy.info/march7_days/march_days.html


    Conversion to metric system:


    Regular march cadence:
    Roman foot = 0.9708 (English foot) * 2,5 = 2,427 ft = 0,74 meters
    0,74 x 100 (paces) – 74 meters per minute = 4,44 km/h - 1,23 m/s

    Quick march cadence:
    1,23 m/s * 120% = 1,476 m/s

    Comparison to Napoleonic age (French army) :

    Pas ordinaire - 165 (ft per minute) = 0,84 m/s
    Pas de route (max version) - 195 (ft per minute) = 0,99 m/s
    Pas accilere - 217 (ft per minute) = 1,1 m/s
    Pas de manoeuvre - 260 (ft per minute) = 1,32 m/s
    Pas de charge - 260 (ft per minute) = 1,32 m/s
    Pas de course - 542 (ft per minute) = 2,75 m/s

    George F. Nafziger, Imperial Bayonets: Tactics of the Napoleonic Battery, Battalion, and Brigade as Found in Contemporary Regulations


    Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus, Epitoma rei militaris/De Re Militari:

    The first thing the soldiers are to be taught is the military step, which can only be acquired by constant practice of marching quick and together. Nor is anything of more consequence either on the march or in the line than that they should keep their ranks with the greatest exactness. For troops who march in an irregular and disorderly manner are always in great danger of being defeated. They should march with the common military step twenty miles in five summer-hours, and with the full step, which is quicker, twenty-four miles in the same number of hours. If they exceed this pace, they no longer march but run, and no certain rate can be assigned.
    Roman mile - 1478,5 meters

    5h – 20 roman miles(29,57 km) = 4 roman miles per hour = 5914 meter per hour = 1,64 m/s (5,9 km/h)
    5h - 24 roman miles(35,484 km) = 4,8 roman miles per hour = 7096,8 meters per hour = 1,97 m/s (7,09 km/h)

    http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/vegetius.html
    http://www.digitalattic.org/home/war/vegetius/
    http://www.romanum.historicus.pl/art...0Wojskowej.pdf

    Vegetius described ideal situation - march during summer, probably on good roman roads and on territory controlled by Romans.

    Here are sources which show that many times Roman units marched by longer time:

    The ordinary day's march (iustum iter) began at four or five o'clock (sunrise) and lasted about seven hours till midday. The afternoons were spent in fortifying, foraging, collecting wood, cooking, mounting guard, etc: The average day's march was about sixteen or seventeen miles. There were occasional forced marches (magna itera) of twenty-five or thirty miles. Caesar records one of forty-eight miles in twenty-four hours with only three hours' rest. According to the tactical situation some marches began as early as two or three o'clock or even at midnight (tertia vigilia). The order of precedence, then as now, was probably changed daily so that the same legion might not always be in the lead.
    http://www.digitalattic.org/home/war/romanarmy/
    +

    http://byzsym.org/index.php/bz/article/viewFile/273/845 (page 178)
    http://archive.org/stream/bellumgall...e/n33/mode/2up
    http://books.google.pl/books?id=7mAq...0miles&f=false


    B. Run speed (second speed in game):

    Second speed in game can represent: speed of run or quick march. First solution (1,476 m/s) leads to strange unnatural situation like quite slow movement during dramatic moments of battle so I will focus on normal run (not run as charge).

    Problem of fatigue system:

    Modders cannot create good fatigue system because cavalry tired much quickly than infantry during run this asymmetry create big issue: infantry units are able to ran without significant fatigue penalty.

    I haven’t found reliable sources about run speed of ancient soldier so i will use my own method of calculation which base on speed of modern soldier.

    http://www.brepr.wp.mil.pl/plik/file/tabela.pdf

    I have found Physical Fitness Standards/Requirements for polish soldiers and I took the worst result for men (3000 meters run: 17 sec) and I have reduced by 20% and result is 2,35 m/s. The worst result, reduction by 20% simulates weight of soldier equipment shield, spear etc.



    C. Summary:

    I focus on medium infantry as base type of unit for my calculation all other speed of infantry movement will be in relation to this unit.

    Walk speed: 1,23 m/s - this value is typical for roman soldier which has been classified in game as heavy unit so base medium soldier speed should be faster +10% (subjective modifier), so:

    Final walk speed = 1,23 m/s * 110% = 1,353 m/s
    Run speed: 2,35 m/s

    These 2 values I will call base speed of infantry:

    Method of speed calculation for other types of infantry:

    Very light: Base speed +50% (140%)
    Light infantry/Berserker: Base speed +20% (120%)
    Medium – 100%
    Heavy infantry: Base speed -10% (90%)
    Very heavy infantry: Base speed -15% (85%)

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Method of speed calculation (land units) for coming version part 2

    II. Cavalry:



    I have not found reliable informations about cavalry speed in ancient age. It is quite possible that this type of source do not exist. I have used data for Napoleonic period and some data about polish cavalry (winged hussars and cavalry from Interwar period) which are very similar :

    Walk: 97-107 (meters per minute) - average: 102 = 1,7 m/s;
    Trot: 194-214 (meters per minute) - average: 204 = 3,4 m/s;
    Gallop: 300 (meters per minute) - 300 – 5 m/s;
    *Better Gallop – 400 - 6,67 m/s;


    Source:

    http://books.google.pl/books?id=Fk38...arches&f=false
    George F. Nafziger, Imperial Bayonets: Tactics of the Napoleonic Battery, Battalion, and Brigade as Found in Contemporary Regulations


    Charge: above or equal to Gallop depends strongly on horse quality

    Source:

    *http://www.lucznictwokonne.pl/zurawi...regkaw/r1.html (96-table) (military regulation of polish cavalry)

    Polish hussars max speed (in last stage of charge) – 10 m/s (heavy cavalry)
    http://www.husaria.jest.pl/taktyka.html


    Conversion to game engine:

    Base unit: Medium cavalry:

    Walk speed: 1,7 m/s (Walk)
    Run speed: 5 m/s (Gallop)
    Charge: 10 m/s + 10% - 11 m/s because winged hussars were heavy cavalry


    Other types of cavalry:

    I had to introduce subjective modifier(%): to portrait differences between types of cavalry.

    Very light: Base speed +20%
    Light infantry: Base speed +10%
    Medium – 100%
    Heavy: Base speed -10%
    Very heavy: Base speed -15%
    Super heavy: Base speed –20%


    -----------------------
    Alternative solution (Gary Brueggeman model):

    Trot: 9 mph – 4,02 m/s
    Easy Gallop: 13 mph – 5,81 m/s
    Full Galop: 22 mph – 9,83 m/s

    http://www.romanarmy.info/cavalry3_d...y_details.html
    http://www.garyb.0catch.com/cavalry_..._infantry.html

    I didn’t use values form that model because I think that military regulations from Napoleonic and Interwar period are enough reliable.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Method of speed calculation (land units) for coming version part 3


    III. Elephants:

    I have based on this scientific article

    http://jeb.biologists.org/content/209/19/3812.full

    I checked results of experiments and in my opinion i have chosen resonable value for run parametr.

    Base value:

    Run: 4,45 m/s
    Charge: 5,9 m/s


    Indian armoured elephant Base value 20%


    IV. Camel

    MAX range: 32 km/h (8,88 m/s) 40 km/h (11,11 m / s) I set 10 as charge speed.

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...0/camel-racing

    I set 5 m/s as run parameter because for horses I also didnt use max speed. Extremely fast camel could look very strange on battlefield.

    http://www.austcamel.com.au/cache/Tr...f%20Camels.htm


    V. Chariot:

    Run: 30 km/h 8,33 m/s
    Charge: 35 km/h - 9,72 m/s


    http://www.hipologia.pl/news/show/id/32/lang/pl/page/5
    http://www.hipologia.pl/news/show/id/32/lang/pl/page/6


    Walk parameters for elephants, camels and chariots are much less important than for infantry and cavalry so i think that current values will be ok.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Nice to see someone who cares about multiplayer, cause me and a friend of mine only play multiplayer Eagerly looking forward too see a more polished version !

    Good luck and TY Bro !

  20. #20

    Default Re: Ekpyrosis mod - battle mechanism for multiplayer mode (v.0.22)

    Great job Ziuk! and thanks for interesting materials

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