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  1. #1
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default The Student Debt Bubble

    So, I know a lot of people paid attention to the events surrounding the housing bubble of 2008. The student debt bubble has inflated six times further from the price index than the housing crisis had been meaning student debt could result in a bubble that eclipses the fallout from the housing crisis.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1266209.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    Thought the mortgage crisis was a rough ride? Buckle up for the next financial crisis. Student-loan debt may be the next major U.S.-asset bubble to burst, according to Standard & Poor's.

    The problem: colleges and universities are hamstrung with lower endowments, while students have increasingly lower prospects of ever paying back their loans. Student debt now outpaces credit-card debt, approaching $1 trillion for the first time. The Project on Student Debt found that in 2008, 67 percent of college students at four-year universities were graduating with student-loan debt. That number is even higher for students at private nonprofit and for-profit colleges and universities.
    So I work for the Oregon Student Association which means I lobby our state legislators pretty heavily on this issue and it interests me to see something that is so universal an issue not be made a bigger priority.

    For example, the average student when I was in kindergarten graduated with $9,250 in debt completing college in 1993. In 2013 that number has more than trippled to between $29,000-$35,000.

    You can bet your sweet ass the average american is not making three times the money. So if school costs three times as much and we're making a few percent more than we were on average what is happening?

    Well starting in the 1970's colleges and universities became under attack by the federal government as centers of liberal thinking. Go figure education inspires more liberal ideas. This began with Nixon and the Vietnam protests. The Vietnam protests were largely held by colleges and universities across the country. These protests severely depleted the popularity of the administration and the war resulting in a cold war of sorts between the government and those it governed.

    However Nixon wasn't really liked and his issues failed. These issues became a party platform for the republican party and still are. Fast forward to Ronald Reagan and we reach the real culprit of the situation we find ourselves in. See Ronald Reagan was in many ways a face man for the political mechanations of the republican party. He took his orders from his advisors infamously so we can't blame him much on a personal level. He was a charismatic face glued on the republican platform.

    One of the first thing Reagan's Administration attacked was the funding pool for schools. The first act he proposed as the Economic Recovery Tax Act. This act reduced the marginal tax rate for the top by an incredible 23%. In addition estate taxes, corporate taxes were massively slashed. The result of this was the loss of state funding in 'discretionary' areas. At the time this meant colleges and universities which were't considered as important as other areas. Of course I should point out that todays findings prove the exact opposite, investing in education is more economically efficient at managing most issues in society than their alternative, i.e. it takes $7 dollars into justice and corrections to statistically achieve the same outcome as $1 invested into education.

    This worked well because the republican platform was that higher education represented a luxury, an elite education (that was only suited for the rich and the already powerful) that only a select few should participate in. The movement by previous presidents to increase the accessibility of education through grants and scholarships was reversed pretty much overnight.

    Next Reagan tried to deal with the economic concerns of employment. His administration's solution was the JTPA or the Job Training and Partnership Act. Unfortunately not only did this bill accomplish nothing to help the situation it actually made it worse. The previous system heavily relied upon the tax surplus to pay for our school system at the time. Despite the inefficiencies shear volume of money made our schools the best in the world. Unfortunately when the Republican party changed the tax system they did not see that schools were provided for in another way. While this could certainly have been an oversight, the effect of creating schools less accessible for differing demographics and races, which favored upperclass white males is what followed. JTPA attempted to address this by offering GED's and a variety of other training programs updating some programs from FDR's alphabet soup and adding other benefits.

    However this was underpinned by a focus on performance, exactly the same stupidity of no child left behind, meaning at the outset funding was directed to those who were already the most successful. This meant privilaged white males. In fact a study in 1991 showed that men who participated in the JTPA's 'benefits' made on average 10 percent less than men who did not, this includes things like job corps. Other studies have showed that the JTPA has minor benefits for women on welfare but was ineffective at affecting their poverty or class. Multiple studies recommended that the same money invested into higher education and existing systems would be more effective. No matter, the issue was quickly obfuscated and distracted from. This is where the rhetoric of you're a communist because you want to invest in the government really began, and this became the response to most hard questions surrounding the damage these laws were doing.

    This was made worse by the 1986 tax reform. This reduced the top marginal income tax from 50% to 28% while increasing the bottom tax rate from 11% to 15%. This is the first act in history of the US to simultaneously lower tax rates on the rich while increasing them on the poor. Furthermore the fifteen distinct brackets were consolidated into 4 brackets eliminating a huge amount of taxable income from the rich. Indeed by the end of Reagan's Presidency the top 1% recieved almost 15% of the national income compared to 8% pre-reagan. We all know today that for the top 1%, this has increased to a high of 25% during the bush era. Income inequality for those who don't know is universally recognized as one of the indicators of a stagnating or improperly functioning economy. laissez faire economics require movement of money in order to function (which the republican platform relies upon publicaly) although it seems strange that the acts supported were acts which decreased this.

    For those of you curious as to why income inequality is bad: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...11/09/Berg.htm

    However income inequality affects again, the under-represented students first. So while the poorest sectors are finding it increasingly harder to go to school due to loss of funding and increases in costs. The richest were further encouraged to go to school by providing tax benefits to property owners. Because the poor rarely own property this effectively worsened the problem.

    Simultaneously to this issue schools were also feeling a problem. At the beginning of 1980 universities recieved more than 50% of their funding from the state. By the end of the Reagan years this had fallen to 24%. This was largely because the guarenteed funding that schools recieved with poorer students was no longer present. In fact, at this point loans only covered between 15-20% of the cost of schooling for the average student. This dynamic has reversed almost entirely with 15-25% of the cost of school covered by grants/scholarships/state aid and 55% covered by student loans.

    Reagan's administration went further to privatize the student loan process charging banks with awarding students effectively closing the door on need based aid.

    As the demographics in colleges changed colleges had to change. To cope with less aid money for their students and a richer overall student population schools increased tuition and they increased tuition very very very fast. Of those of you who remember being alive durring Reagan's administration I'm sure you can recall the increases. For example Texas State, the university my father was attended tripped it's tuition in 1986 in response to the legislation which priced my father out of education resulting in him joining the navy. He had less than a year to complete his nuclear engineering degree. With such a degree his estimated earning potential was more than four times that in the Navy. It took my father, the valedictorian of his highschool, a 4.0 student and a national champion fencer out of school.

    It took my dad until he reached the age of 40 to achieve parity with experience what he would have recieved had he been able to complete college. Don't get me wrong, my dad could have taken a student loan, he might've qualified for several scholarships. However the need for these at this point in time was totally different from today. The generation that was in college in the 80's was typically able to pay for their entire years living expenses and tuition with one summer part-time job, one didn't consider loans because one didn't need to. For someone who came from poverty this was not even an idea on the horizon. Being rich has the added advantage of simply making you more familiar with how money works and how to use it. By the 1990's the typical student was working a year round part-time job and taking out as much as $10,000 in loans and other debts. This was a reversal from ten years previous where tuition and cost of living could be paid for in one three month part time position.

    Now today, twenty years later we find that that number has again tripled. The average student has a debt of $29,000 but we should point out that this includes those students who have every dollar paid for by their parents, or a large portion of it which is about 50% of the students currently present in school. For those of us who don't have the option of paying for our school with our parent's credit card or otherwise, the only plausible way to get into higher education is to be willing to take between $50,000 and $100,000 in loan debt once every thing is said and done. The exceptions to this are few and far between to offset this issue meaning we would need to spend twice as much overall on higher education funding in the form of scholarships/grants to restore the status quo to pre-Reagan. Furthermore even at this point college would still be primarily accessible to the upper middle class and rich sectors of our society. To bring about parity between demographics (with the current system) it is estimated we'd need to spend triple what we currently do on grants and scholarships.

    So what's the issue then? Yeah school costs a lot but why isn't this being fixed?

    Unfortunately the answer to this appears to be simple human perception. We as humans form our worldviews to be relatively long lasting. So our perceptions which are imbedded in these worldviews are also part of that. When I'm speaking to someone who is 60 years old about student debt they cannot comprehend the type of debt I'm speaking of. They still feel that proportionally we're in a similar boat. This means that the issue is not recognized largely by policy makers but mostly recognized by the youngest generation. This generation is least likely to make political impact which means we should just now start to see individuals from the 1980's entering office who can attest that this issue even exists in the first place.

    This is complicated by the general public's opinion as well as voter apathy. For example, in oregon the voter demographics are such that because a huge proportion of the elderly vote, they actually form a larger voting demographics than 'students' do. While students are more numerous by about double their voting power is severely limited.

    Part of this was also Reagan's administration's doing with voting changes they implemented. By making forwarding a ballot illegal and changing many residency (as in you must register to vote in your official county of residence or etc) definitions he effectively prevented typical college students from voting. Because they lived with their parents technically, this is where they were registered to vote in the same way most of us are. However because the voting period was during the school year students had one of two options, travel to voting booth in the appropriate area if possible, or re-register to vote in their university. Students suddenly became a lot quieter in the political process.

    So what can you do?

    Spread the word about the problem. Make sure that the issue of student debt is on everyone's mind. Furthermore make sure that we emphasize the fast growing nature of this problem because once their four years is over people effectively forget about the issues in college. People don't realize that the issue hasn't gotten even the slightest bit better on people. At best it's been getting worse slower.

    Discussion? What do you guys think? Is this the next debt bubble?
    Last edited by Elfdude; September 11, 2013 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #2
    stoogeofstooges's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Fortunately, I got lucky enough to not have debt. Any money I got for my birthday or Christmas, since, well, day 1, has pretty much gone into a college fund. I'm attending Millersville University which runs about 20,000 a year for an in-state student. After reviewing the bills for 4 years of school several times over, we've come to the conclusion that I won't need any loans. The question of whether my teaching degree will land me a job is another animal entirely.

    However, if I had gone to Gettysburg (a private school) where the cost is 55,000 a year, I would've been buried in student debt.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by stoogeofstooges View Post
    Fortunately, I got lucky enough to not have debt. Any money I got for my birthday or Christmas, since, well, day 1, has pretty much gone into a college fund. I'm attending Millersville University which runs about 20,000 a year for an in-state student. After reviewing the bills for 4 years of school several times over, we've come to the conclusion that I won't need any loans. The question of whether my teaching degree will land me a job is another animal entirely.

    However, if I had gone to Gettysburg (a private school) where the cost is 55,000 a year, I would've been buried in student debt.

    Gettysburg is quite a expensive place.


    But I always say don't spend money you don't have. For certain kids, stop taking out loans to go to Cancun on spring break.

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    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    You're quite fortunate. Most children don't recieve enough money from birthdays and christmas etc's to make much of a dent for college funds.

    On average I received about $300 a year from gifts like this. This makes me think that your parents have either put a lot more emphasis on it since it was your college fund or they're paying your college bills for you.

    Unfortunately as it currently is about one in four students are food insecure due to not having enough money for food. More than half didn't buy their textbooks because they couldn't afford them.

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    Default The Student Debt Bubble

    As a junior in high school who comes from a relatively poor family, this has been the most depressing thing to me recently. I get good grades and am in the higher up classes, so I can hope to get a few small scholarships, but other than that ill have to rely almost exclusively on loans.

    This essentially rules out any "better" college I could get into because of the sheer cost. It is a sad day when I realized it would be cheaper for me to go to a top school in Canada (like McGill) than it would for me to go to a state school like Rutgers and Rowan.

    It makes me sick to my stomach when I see people practically worship Reagan. Most of our problems today can be traced right back to his administration, yet he is treated as the messiah, even by some democrats. It's almost offensive really, as a student who is going to suffer because of his policies.


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    Last edited by Slydessertfox; September 11, 2013 at 09:28 PM.

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    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Well a large amount of the quality of one school over another is overstated and a bit arbitrary. Furthermore it's much easier to get into these prestigious schools as a graduate with a good GPA anyways. Many students for such schools don't have to pay tuition once they get to that point. However when push comes to shove the difference between harvard and your state university is largely hype. The one advantage is many of such schools no longer require tuition of their needy students.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    I don't follow. I mean I understand the "quality of schools is overhyped" thing, but not the rest.


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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    The advantages of going to a better school i.e. a private vs a public school are more or less nothing. The two schools must meet the same base standards in order to teach and are usually overseen in this regard by the same organizations. I.E. A bachelor of science is a bachelor of science anywhere you get it (so long as it's regionally accredited).

    This can be calculated by looking at the return on your investment.



    You'll notice that the best return on public schools is about the cost of a state school. If you look at the private schools your return on your investment doesn't even approach state schools until you get to about 20-40k more than public schools. This makes sense since public schools are subsidized and both schools have to meet the same standards.

    However you might think private schools overall are better. Except for the rare exception of schools like dartmouth, harvard etc, most private schools have similar earning potentials to state schools. On the other hand, a state school is much more reliably better and both on average produce the same.

    The best paying jobs however from all of these schools are graduate degrees. It is much much much easier to transfer to a great private school as a graduate from your four year degree program at your state school than it is to get into it from highschool. This is to say, you can end up with the same name on the degree and earning potential for drastically less by doing the majority of your degree elsewhere and transferring at the school to finish it. Current regulations mean you must earn at least 25% of your credit to graduate at the graduating school. i.e. you could do most of your grad degree at a state school transfer over and graduate with harvard on your diploma. Furthermore most of these uber prestigious schools entirely waive tuition for students who are needy meaning if you're not a person who could realistically pay anyways they'll waive that tuition for you.

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    I do wonder why Americans pay taxes at all when they get so little in return except a military able to kill evil people across the planet. OK, I do get why, it does get you cheap imports and dollar-recycling, but after some 40 years of crooked domestic economic policies, the cards are also entirely stacked against the average American.

    I hope Americans start learning from this and see the bigger picture, instead of always insulating issues. Oh and wasnt Obama making promises a thousand times over? And what happened to the Warren Bill, planning for the Federal Reseve to buy up student debt?
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I do wonder why Americans pay taxes at all when they get so little in return except a military able to kill evil people across the planet. OK, I do get why, it does get you cheap imports and dollar-recycling, but after some 40 years of crooked domestic economic policies, the cards are also entirely stacked against the average American.

    I hope Americans start learning from this and see the bigger picture, instead of always insulating issues. Oh and wasnt Obama making promises a thousand times over? And what happened to the Warren Bill, planning for the Federal Reseve to buy up student debt?
    Obama passed more major legislation improving the economy in his first two years than all of Reagan's in his entire presidency. There has been several improvements under Obama however further improvements are being hamstrung by the republicans. Since his very successful and active first two years he's only managed to get two other major pieces of legislation passed.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Well "the economy" is an issue on its own, but what about Obama and student debt? And what do you think of the Warren Bill in response to the typical democratic party style "compromise".
    Last edited by Thorn777; September 11, 2013 at 11:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    The Healthcare and Education Reconciliation act, was just one of a slate of planned acts which were in the works until the republicans brought the process to a halt with the 2010 elections. The Healthcare and Education Reconciliation act was passed however. Furthermore the current bickering isn't in regards to the necessity of the bill but whether the bill is strong enough. Some Democrats do not believe it is and in truth they're correct but republicans will not allow the more appropriate bill to pass. Considering the bill is likely to pass anyways there's not really much concern. This is not really an act of defiance but rather an act bringing attention to the fact that the democrats wanted a better bill but republicans wouldn't go for it.

    My question is why won't the republicans support a stronger bill? Not why do the democrats want a stronger bill.

    However, I should point out that these solutions are just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to addressing student debt. The sad thing is it's dubious that republicans will allow the emphasis on the issue necessary to really improve the situation. As it is the democrats are struggling to flatline the problem, the thought of fixing it just isn't possible without greater support for the democratic platform. The republican platform emphasizes loans, and private schools.
    Last edited by Elfdude; September 11, 2013 at 11:26 PM.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    I think one very important topic is missing from your post and that is what type of degrees people are getting. Engineers seem to make a lot of money in the US according to this study. So the debt bubble is unlikely to hit all graduates at the same time like it did with the housing bubble (higher income had a tendency to lead to higher debt rather than the reverser)

    But I have a hard time seeing how a student debt bubble would cause that type of crisis. You may suffer a major brain drain as qualified people decide to opt for less study-intensive career paths but I do not see how over-education would cause a major backlash for the economy student. I feel sorry for people who are dumb enough to take loans for a communications or art degree but these people will still contribute to society by working extremely hard to pay their debt on a very low wage.

    In some ways I would actually even guess that Sweden is in a worse position than USA. Because we have free university degrees and an extensive social security system which mean that people with useless degrees are able to remain unemployed for a very long time as they see manual labour as "beneath" them.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Since student loans cannot be discharged by bankruptcy, it's a permanent albatross, whereas you could walk away from your mortgage.

    Pretty much a Ponzi scheme, as having access to them meant that fees were structured to maximize their exploitation, but I suspect unless you graduated from the really top colleges, the indenturement probably wouldn't be worth it, and you might as well have picked a middle of the road institution with more reasonable costs.
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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by elfdude View Post

    My question is why won't the republicans support a stronger bill? Not why do the democrats want a stronger bill.

    However, I should point out that these solutions are just the tip of the iceburg when it comes to addressing student debt. The sad thing is it's dubious that republicans will allow the emphasis on the issue necessary to really improve the situation. As it is the democrats are struggling to flatline the problem, the thought of fixing it just isn't possible without greater support for the democratic platform. The republican platform emphasizes loans, and private schools.
    Well after observing American politics since the last days of Reagan, Im pretty confident in my notion that the republican party is just a very "dubious" party at its core findings and policy wise can not be taken seriously anymore. And sadly time and time again democrats have proven to be just as dubious in their actions after the rhetoric. Since not only do they pass trough bad policies now and then, they also enable the dynamism of the last decades where a republican party goes all out and causes havoc in their sitting terms, but then when its the democratic turn they dont do nearly enough to correct or improve in a progressive sense. With that continuum we get the steady erosion of the progressive state, and due to this dynamic we also have this mayor shift of the American political center of gravity to the right. And where does this continue further? Ask yourself this question.

    It seems deliberate to be frank. It would also explain the shameless freakshow and craziness in form of many popular GOP figureheads, who when still wanting to be reckoned to the right of the democratic party, have to go all out nuts with it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Since student loans cannot be discharged by bankruptcy, it's a permanent albatross, whereas you could walk away from your mortgage.
    I wonder whats the motivation behind this.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I wonder whats the motivation behind this.
    Lower risk for the bank mean that they can require lower rates on the loans. So my guess is that it is a classic example of economists trying to manipulate their risk evaluations to make them look more favourable until things backfire.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    The UK is in a very similar situation I fear.

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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    The UK is in a very similar situation I fear.
    For once we agree on something. I graduated in June with a BA in English Lit and a debt of Ł18-19k (I am now self funding my MA, which I study part time). However, for current students, their debt levels will be closer to Ł40k upon graduation. This is because, as I'm sure you are alluding to, our Coalition government of the vested interests have tripled tuition fees. It was simply hilarious that they justified this as an austerity measure, because it is simply creating a massive financial vacuum for the future: how many current students are really going to pay back that monster? The government (I.E, the taxpayer) are going to make a massive loss in the long run.

    As far as my personal situation goes, I am worried. In an ideal world I would be studying full time, and then going on to do a PhD. However, there is no way I can do either of these without impoverishing myself. My wages go on tuition fees, travel expenses and rent, and if I wasn't fortunate enough to have family support to subsidise me, I doubt I would even have been able to get a degree in the first place. It doesn't help that my job is crap because decent work is hard to find, and even then, it's hard to find an employer willing to work around my MA studies.
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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    For once we agree on something. I graduated in June with a BA in English Lit and a debt of Ł18-19k (I am now self funding my MA, which I study part time). However, for current students, their debt levels will be closer to Ł40k upon graduation. This is because, as I'm sure you are alluding to, our Coalition government of the vested interests have tripled tuition fees. It was simply hilarious that they justified this as an austerity measure, because it is simply creating a massive financial vacuum for the future: how many current students are really going to pay back that monster? The government (I.E, the taxpayer) are going to make a massive loss in the long run.

    As far as my personal situation goes, I am worried. In an ideal world I would be studying full time, and then going on to do a PhD. However, there is no way I can do either of these without impoverishing myself. My wages go on tuition fees, travel expenses and rent, and if I wasn't fortunate enough to have family support to subsidise me, I doubt I would even have been able to get a degree in the first place. It doesn't help that my job is crap because decent work is hard to find, and even then, it's hard to find an employer willing to work around my MA studies.
    The loans are considered as a sunk cost, and the repayments are considered as a revenue stream, therefore there will be no massive financial vacuum in the future. The government is also paying a lot less directly to the universities, too.
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    Default Re: The Student Debt Bubble

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
    The loans are considered as a sunk cost, and the repayments are considered as a revenue stream, therefore there will be no massive financial vacuum in the future.
    Until the repayments stop as a result of being unable to afford the ever increasing price.

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