Proper Phalanx?

[Marcus Vitruvius]

I have yet to purchase Rome 2. I've seen plenty of screenshots of the units in the game but I was wondering. Isn't the Greek phalanx supposed to look like this? Is the Rome 2 CA Greek Phalanx historically inaccurate?



I know this is a picture of the Macedonian phalanx but shouldn't the Greeks have something resembling this? From what I've seen the Greeks just have short spears and shields and the phalanx doesn't look as snazzy as the Macedonian one.

[McCarronXLD]

In game there are Hoplites (which have the short spears and large shields you are referring to) and Pikemen, which have the long spears and shorter shields as seen above.

[Marcus Vitruvius]

In game there are Hoplites (which have the short spears and large shields you are referring to) and Pikemen, which have the long spears and shorter shields as seen above.

Im sorry but I'm not very savvy in ancient warfare but aren't Hoplites and Pikemen the same (how are they different?)? I wasn't unaware that pikemen existed in the early Roman period.

[mastermindkar]

The picture you provided is of a Macedonian type phalanx. This type of phalanx features pike men, as shown. In the classic Greek phalanx, the hoplites are equipped with spears that are only 8 or 9 feet long, as opposed to the pikes which are around 21 feet long. In the Greek phalanx the hoplites form a shield wall with their large round shields, and hold their spears one handed in an over-hand position (sort of like if you were going to throw it). They then stab at the enemy over the tops of their shields. I'm sure someone here will be happy to go into greater depth, but that's the gist of it.

The in-game representation of the Greek phalanx is not very good, but the equipment the hoplites have is about right. Also, although the pike phalanx is commonly referred to as a Macdeonian phalanx, this is only because it became famous in Alexander the Great's Macedonian army. The pike phalanx was originally developed in the Greek city-state of Corinth, and was used by a large number of nations throughout the Mediteranean and Middle-East regions. Pike formations were actually fairly common during the early Roman period, as they were catapulted into fame by Alexander and then were used by all of the Macedonian successor states, as well as the Greeks and Carthaginians. They fell out of use as those nations were conquered by Rome or otherwise disintegrated.

[Marcus Vitruvius]

The picture you provided is of a Macedonian type phalanx. This type of phalanx features pike men, as shown. In the classic Greek phalanx, the hoplites are equipped with spears that are only 8 or 9 feet long, as opposed to the pikes which are around 21 feet long. In the Greek phalanx the hoplites form a shield wall with their large round shields, and hold their spears one handed in an over-hand position (sort of like if you were going to throw it). They then stab at the enemy over the tops of their shields. I'm sure someone here will be happy to go into greater depth, but that's the gist of it.

The in-game representation of the Greek phalanx is not very good, but the equipment the hoplites have is about right. Also, although the pike phalanx is commonly referred to as a Macdeonian phalanx, this is only because it became famous in Alexander the Great's Macedonian army. The pike phalanx was originally developed in the Greek city-state of Corinth, and was used by a large number of nations throughout the Mediteranean and Middle-East regions. Pike formations were actually fairly common during the early Roman period, as they were catapulted into fame by Alexander and then were used by all of the Macedonian successor states, as well as the Greeks and Carthaginians. They fell out of use as those nations were conquered by Rome or otherwise disintegrated.

There are essentially two formations called phalanx.

Older, hoplite phalanx, is pretty much tightly packed shield wall with long, one handed spears that allow to present two or three rows of spear points against enemy. Main points are shield overlapping and long spears, dory (a hoplite spear) could be as long as 3m, that's probably physical limit to onehanded spears. Thanks to heavy gear and good training, as hoplites came from wealthier classes of society, they also could fight very well outside the phalanx.

Macedonian phalanx is what's on the picture. Shield was reduced to small one strapped to left forearm and supported by neck strap to leave both hands free for sarissa (pike). The length of it allowed to put five spearpoints in front of formation. But the reduction of shield meant they were more vulnerable to missile fire, and less useful in individual combat outside formation.

Thank you for both for your replies!

[Marcus Vitruvius]

Double Post

[daelin4]

Im sorry but I'm not very savvy in ancient warfare but aren't Hoplites and Pikemen the same (how are they different?)? I wasn't unaware that pikemen existed in the early Roman period.

Similar, but no they are not, it would be like comparing an air superiority fighter jet to a fighter-bomber: well yeah they are quite similar especially in appearance to an untrained eye, but you won't be able to appreciate the more subtle differences.

The term phalanx in reality could be quite a general term for any group of soldiers in a tight formation, though of course in most contexts everyone would be talking about the Greek hoplites or Macedonian pikemen. A hoplite phalanx heavily emphasizes protection, using the large round shields to overlap and prevent enemy thrusts or breakthroughs. The phalanx's main strength (and critical weakness) is being impenetrable, and this is what makes the Spartans so famous for their warfare: their superior level of drill and training allows them to move and hold ground in excellent formation. In battles like Leuctra where their phalanx was penetrated by a large mass of Theban hoplites, defeat followed in short order. Their spears discouraged enemies from getting too close.
Unlike the Macedonian phalanx, charging seemed to be a rather common tactic for hoplites, but charging tends to trade cohesion (standing together in good order) for mass and momentum (when you charge you can knock someone over). It seems the Spartans favoured a steady advance, while others preferred a more heroic charge that crashes one phalanx into another. This preference likely added to their ability to stay in formation during combat.
Equipment of hoplites evolved (or rather devolved if you will) over time up until the Greeks' conquest by Macedon: the typical chest armour, greaves, large helmet and the occasional armguards gradually disappeared as hoplite armies fought primarily other hoplites, to the point that many of them were just wearing simple cloaks (or naked) with helmet, shield and the occasional one greave for the left leg that is positioned forward. Since the shield protects the torso and the lack of other armour pieces means improved mobility due to less weight, it seems quite a natural thing to do. By the time Philip and Alexander took over the Greek cities in the mainland however, the ditched pieces made a comeback, as threats from missiles and lighter infantry attacks become a more frequent concern. If you've played the first RTW you will notice the Spartan hoplites wearing such gear: this was accurate if it was about 200-300 years before that game's time frame for most hoplite armies.

The Macedonian phalanx took a different evolution, since Macedon during its early days mostly fought the numerous Thracian tribes further north. Hoplites were wealthier citizens and thus could not have been in great numbers, and the Macedonian kings had some trouble pacifying them up until Philip became king. Using numerous innovative ideas he made their spears long an their shields smaller, and likely the earlier pikemen wore less armour. The ability to conquer the Thracians and establish control over resources like silver mines allowed Macedon to fund armies based on the numerous herd-based peasants (and using money to equip them) rather than rely on farm-based citizens like those in Greece. Philip also developed a larger cavalry corps than any other Greek city-state (being a herding-based kingdom and expanding over the Thracians, Macedon was also in a position to afford this compared to other Greek cities). The entire Macedonian army thus relied much more on these two parts working together: the Greek city states still relied quite heavily on hoplite infantry, though they were definitely adding missile troops and cavalry to their forces as well: the incessant warfare between them however prevented them from enlarging these to a degree that could comfortably challenge Macedon alone.
Unlike hoplites the Macedonian pikemen (also called phalangites, which is interchangeable) relied much more on the offensive, and longer spears to defeat an enemy. While they could stand ground and skewer anyone trying to engage them head-on, they will also eventually have to move forward and attack any opponent too hesitant to be aggressive. Longer spears means their shields can be smaller and no longer require overlapping (and thus no longer need to be so tightly packed in most cases) and it also meant that any infantry would have to get through them to have a chance at the men holding these weapons. This is a small issue if the men were poorly trained, but the programme Philip had for his armies ensured that his troops were in quality fighting condition, helped with experience against unruly Thracians either under or beyond Macedon's rule.
Ironically the pikemen were equipped in the more traditional hoplite panoply of equipment by the time Macedon starting taking over the Greeks (that is at the least, those pikemen at the front ranks: in cases where equipment was short it was likely to have the men at the back with less armour). The Greeks themselves followed suit: the hoplite forces that went with Alexander into Persia are described as equipped in their older style of typical hoplite gear, chest armour, greaves for both legs, etc., no longer the near-naked spear-helmet-shield loadout they had back during the Peloponnesian Wars.

As for Rome2, the hoplites and the pikemen are considerably different (and frustratingly, they look very similar, from units in battle mode to their unit card pictures). The hoplite phalanx most people deride as broken or not working properly, since they don't really present a shield wall like many other units could. They can also break formation and charge, though I argue that this is quite realistic if the order was a full-on charge, not a steady advance. The pike phalanx works as it looks, though it seems that like the hoplite phalanx, the formation warps and disintegrates in combat even if you want them to maintain formation.

[Sar1n]

There are essentially two formations called phalanx.

Older, hoplite phalanx, is pretty much tightly packed shield wall with long, one handed spears that allow to present two or three rows of spear points against enemy. Main points are shield overlapping and long spears, dory (a hoplite spear) could be as long as 3m, that's probably physical limit to onehanded spears. Thanks to heavy gear and good training, as hoplites came from wealthier classes of society, they also could fight very well outside the phalanx.

Macedonian phalanx is what's on the picture. Shield was reduced to small one strapped to left forearm and supported by neck strap to leave both hands free for sarissa (pike). The length of it allowed to put five spearpoints in front of formation. But the reduction of shield meant they were more vulnerable to missile fire, and less useful in individual combat outside formation.

[Marcus Vitruvius]

Wow, thank you for the reply! It seems as if the Greek and Macedonian phalanx was not accurately represented in Rome 2. I've seen gameplay where charging units charged right through the massive spears of the Macedonians! Personally, I think when the Greek hoplites are arranged in a phalanx formation they should advance steadily and the formation shouldnt break apart.

[Marcus Vitruvius]

Double Post..

[Gunfreak]

The pike phalanx(phalangites) as mentioned was Phillips Big invention(some say he got the idea while beeing prisoner)
It easly dominated the greeks with the older hoplties. After the invension of the phalangites, the hoplties were kinda obsolite, yet they did not disapear, Epirus, Macedonia, Selucids Egypt all used the Phalangites, as well as the other sucessors, you did se some hoplties in their armies, but mostly as greek mercenaries(the greek hoplite mercenary was standard in the entire mediteranian area)
The hoplite was also a kind of citizen soldier, so in greece propper it continued, as well as in the greek colonies of Italy and Sicaly.
And there are a few instances were hoplites did hold back phalangites, but those were they exception not the rule.

The phalangites work "ok" in rome 2, if they just fix the blobing that all units have now, they will work great(also they need to make the pike always be there)
The hoplites are totaly screwed up, they hold the shield and spears wrong, The spears should be held OVER their head not under the shield.

This is how a Hoplite held their spears

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/p...ps027c0571.jpg

[Mahgnus]

@gunfreak: Can you provide a source to your claim that the spears would have been held overhand? I'm not questioning you, but just curious on the topic.

[Sar1n]

@gunfreak: Can you provide a source to your claim that the spears would have been held overhand? I'm not questioning you, but just curious on the topic.

One reason is that hoplites were often pictured this way in ancient art. But main reason is simple physical limitations. Hoplites arranged into proper phalanx with overlapping shields would have no room to use their spears under the shield.

[daelin4]

I have read a few books here and there that analyzed the position of hoplites holding spears as largely circumstantial: meaning that in some cases it would be expected and more practical to hold overhand, or underhand. It is possible that some states preferred one way or another, in the same way that some states preferred to charge in various degrees into the enemy where others, purportedly Sparta, preferred holding position or a steady, disciplined advance.

I doubt the Greeks just got together and wrote up a rule book of exactly how all their hoplites should be fighting and there must never be any exceptions. It may have been a trend and it may have been prominent and declined in various points of the Greeks' history.

Specifically for the artwork, I believe it was that Lindy Beige buy on youtubte (the one that makes "a point about X" videos) that gives the guess that the overhand depiction in art was for dramatic and decorative effect.

[AceofKnaves]

I can second daelin4 on this. I studied and wrote a graduate term paper on othismos (phalanx shoving matches) and the issue of how a spear was wielded in phalanx formation is up for scholarly debate to some degree and may have been adapted for each polis.