Primary VS Secondary

[Team Sleep]

I vaguely remember this topic being posted or at least attached to a more obscure thread. I've always known about Primary weapons and secondary weapons on select units. Now I was wondering in general, and if you have details on specifics according to units; When is the best time to switch from a unit's primary to secondary weapon? Here are some more specific questions. For instance the Iberian Heavy Cavalry. They have lances and they have swords. Obviously you are not going to charge into a mass of enemies with your swords. You click once to initiate the charge w/ lances. But the question is....when do you or should you ever switch to your sword? Is it more effective to just stick with your lance when fighting after the charge? Or what about the phalanx or hoplite units? Should I ever switch out of phalanx mode when fighting an enemy on flat land and just accept the losses when trying to reposition the men, or just switch to the 2ndary weapon asap. What about fighting atop of walls? Should I allow my guarding hoplite units to stay fighting with their spears, or switch them over to their swords. I would appreciate an answer in terms of game practicality and roleplaying advice. Also...now that I have the idea of horse charges in my brain. The question is...guard mode...or not guard mode...which packs more of a wallop?

[Entropy Judge]

Here are some more specific questions. For instance the Iberian Heavy Cavalry. They have lances and they have swords. Obviously you are not going to charge into a mass of enemies with your swords. You click once to initiate the charge w/ lances. But the question is....when do you or should you ever switch to your sword? Is it more effective to just stick with your lance when fighting after the charge?

Depends on what you're charging, to be honest; I typically Alt-Charge, which doesn't actually charge with the Secondary, but rather Charges with the Lance and then automatically switches to the Secondary. Of course, if the unit you're charging is Infantry and it doesn't break and isn't being mulched by units on at least three sides, you shouldn't be staying to fight anyway ....

But yeah, I tend to either just Alt-Charge or switch immediately with Cavalry, both because my experiences show that the sidearms are about equal to the Lance in most situations, and because I think it's more realistic.

Or what about the phalanx or hoplite units? Should I ever switch out of phalanx mode when fighting an enemy on flat land and just accept the losses when trying to reposition the men, or just switch to the 2ndary weapon asap.

I am utterly terrible with Phalangites, and they seem to hate me as well, so I tend to drop Phalanx Mode fairly quickly. As an aside, I tend to only use the better Phalangites on the rare occasion that I play a Phalanx-based faction, so they tend to be rather good with their swords anyway.

Also: The Pantodapoi Phalangitai available to the Seleukids, Saba, Baktrians, Hai, Pahlav, and Pontos, is armed with an Axe for a sidearm.

What about fighting atop of walls? Should I allow my guarding hoplite units to stay fighting with their spears, or switch them over to their swords.

Realistically, it probably doesn't matter - both spears and swords are effective on walltops (spears probably moreso, since you can get more pointy bits facing the enemy); practically speaking ... the Hoplites that actually have both Sword and Spear either have a Longsword (more Lethal, lower Attack) or an AP Sword, so I'd say it depends on the unit coming over the walls. Instead of having your Thorakitai Hoplitai switch to their AP Kopis when the Batacorii come over the walls, wait for the Neitos.

Also...now that I have the idea of horse charges in my brain. The question is...guard mode...or not guard mode...which packs more of a wallop?

I'm ... not sure, actually. I would think that Guard Mode OFF would do more damage, because with it on the unit will try to keep formation, which means the rear ranks wouldn't actually engage the enemy because the forward ranks have stopped - but I'm not sure, and I haven't actually tested it.

[athanaric]

Also: The Pantodapoi Phalangitai available to the Seleukids, Saba, Baktrians, Hai, Pahlav, and Pontos, is armed with an Axe for a sidearm.

And terrible accuracy. They never seem to hit anything when you need them to. It's because of the low attack value, which also makes them inferior on walls (along with low defence skill).

Realistically, it probably doesn't matter - both spears and swords are effective on walltops (spears probably moreso, since you can get more pointy bits facing the enemy); practically speaking ... the Hoplites that actually have both Sword and Spear either have a Longsword (more Lethal, lower Attack) or an AP Sword, so I'd say it depends on the unit coming over the walls. Instead of having your Thorakitai Hoplitai switch to their AP Kopis when the Batacorii come over the walls, wait for the Neitos.

You can't switch melee weapons on walls, because only the secondary will work there. Thorakitai Hoplitai on walls always use their swords. It's most annoying with those units that have their primary and secondary weapons reversed (e.g. Solduros), because it makes them much less effective in sieges than they could be.

[Magnum_Opus]

I've had a quick look at game files, and the attack value for cavalry's alternate weapons is usually 2-3 times higher than the attack value for the spear. However cavalry's secondary weapon isn't armour piercing (AP negates half of enemy armour) like their main spear. So you want to change to your secondary mostly, though it might be better to use the primary weapon against super heavily armoured enemy units.As an example, Roman Equites Consulares primary weapon has an attack value of 4, and is armour piercing, while their secondary has an attack value of 10 and it not armour piercing. Of course it depends a lot on what cavalry unit you're using.

[Entropy Judge]

I've had a quick look at game files, and the attack value for cavalry's alternate weapons is usually 2-3 times higher than the attack value for the spear. However cavalry's secondary weapon isn't armour piercing (AP negates half of enemy armour) like their main spear.

There are two other factors to take into consideration (leaving aside the fact that some units do have AP sidearms): Lethality and rate of attack. Rate of attack I'm not too sure on; I believe the lance is *supposed* to be much slower-attacking than it really is, but it isn't for some reason, which makes it much more useful in melee. Lethality, though ... most sidearms are .13 Lethality or so (AP Swords are .11, and AP Axes are .165, while Longswords are .225), but the Lance for Heavy Cavalry is .33 to .44 Lethality, depending on the unit. For example, the Equites Consulares has a 4-Attack AP Lance with .33 Lethality for its Primary, while its Secondary is a 10-Attack Sword with .13 Lethality. The Lance is probably going to be about as effective most of the time, and far more effective if you're going up against units with good Armour ratings.

[Magnum_Opus]

There are two other factors to take into consideration (leaving aside the fact that some units do have AP sidearms): Lethality and rate of attack. Rate of attack I'm not too sure on; I believe the lance is *supposed* to be much slower-attacking than it really is, but it isn't for some reason, which makes it much more useful in melee. Lethality, though ... most sidearms are .13 Lethality or so (AP Swords are .11, and AP Axes are .165, while Longswords are .225), but the Lance for Heavy Cavalry is .33 to .44 Lethality, depending on the unit. For example, the Equites Consulares has a 4-Attack AP Lance with .33 Lethality for its Primary, while its Secondary is a 10-Attack Sword with .13 Lethality. The Lance is probably going to be about as effective most of the time, and far more effective if you're going up against units with good Armour ratings.

I was unaware about this lethality rating. Does it show in the game files somewhere? And does it also apply to Med 2?

[Entropy Judge]

I was unaware about this lethality rating. Does it show in the game files somewhere?

Yes, it is:

;212
type eastern cavalry mada asabara
dictionary eastern_cavalry_mada_asabara ; Mada Asabara
category cavalry
class light
voice_type General_1
soldier eastern_cavalry_aspet_kappadocian_mediancavalry, 25, 0, 1
mount saddle horse light
mount_effect chariot +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, very_hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 27, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 160 , 0 .15
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 7, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 , 0.165
stat_sec_attr ap
stat_pri_armour 8, 8, 2, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -1
stat_mental 11, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2176, 544, 40, 90, 2176
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, egypt, parthia, pontus, saba

Highlighted numbers are the Lethality rating.

And does it also apply to Med 2?

I ... don't *think* so. You'd have to ask someone who knows more about M2 (and/or has it installed on their computer). Sorry.

[War lord]

Med2 replaces Lethality rating with Animation speed.