Not Heroic Enough??

**Asiriya** · September 14, 2006, 12:47 PM

There was a near full stack of Carthaginians that had just landed off so i built some troops; three triarii, three principes and some hastati. I also had five generals in the area, all three bronze/one silver chevroned. I fought the battle with my generals, only using the infantry to mop up.

Those are the results. As you can see, i killed 2000 plus with only 61 deaths. They had outnumbered me to start with, and yet i only got a clear victory? I know five generals is overkill +1 but come on, it doesnt take away the fact i annihilated them..does it?

**Aedelric** · September 14, 2006, 01:16 PM

Not that supprising you won, if they attacked your troops would have launched over 2000 missiles, the generals would have given plenty of morale and easily/quickly outflanked the enemy. They would have fled before having a chance to attack you. Still, its satisfying to get a good result.

I once defened a city from 600 Carthaginians with only one unit once... I was so shocked when I won

Its great when things work out.

**Oddball_E8** · September 14, 2006, 02:01 PM

i think the computer puts alot of weight on the difference in starting numbers too... since you were almost matched its just a clear victory (since the computer counts on you using all your troops... wether or not you do is a different matter)
had you only had those five generals in your army it would definately have been a heroic victory...

as an example lets take the story of the 300 spartans... now they killed alot of enemies (yes, i know they didnt win, but lets say they did) per man... thats a heroic victory (had they won... hell... it was heroic enayways... i wish there was heroic defeats too)
had they been the equal number of troops to the enemy it wouldnt be heroic even if they didnt lose a single man... impressive, but not heroic...
see what i mean?

**Asiriya** · September 14, 2006, 02:08 PM

indeed, its a shame but i went on and won a proper heroic victory straight after. all good i guess

**vikrant** · September 14, 2006, 02:13 PM

welll u had an invading army under ur command with 5 battle hardened generals
and u expect to call ur victory an heroic victory ??? it not even a fair battle
just kidding
but seriously
generals have better morale ,attack ,defence hence the no of generals are also considered before the outcome of an battle is declared
i bet if u would have won the battle with 5 normal horse unts intead of general
then the victory would have been a heroic {with 61 losses}

**Asiriya** · September 14, 2006, 02:17 PM

lol, five normal horse troops and 61? that possible?
ok, i shouldnt doubt really, knowing, or not, the skill of u guys it is possible i guess :S

**vikrant** · September 14, 2006, 02:24 PM

i was talking about the same army u had but with five heavy cavalry units instead of five generals units

**Amur_Tiger** · September 14, 2006, 06:01 PM

But this on the other hand is heroic...

Usually you have to be at a disadvantage units wise and since Roman units come with less men (2:3 for a regular sized unit) then the most from other factions it's easy to be outnumbered but have the better army on your side so the numbers are often misleading, especially since you have so many general bodyguards. Building heroic victories mainly depends on force multipliers, namely weaker units that become powerful when combined with certain other units and tactics. For the phalanx based armies this comes in units like peltasts and thereophoroi who aren't too hot on their own but are great for swinging around the flanks of an enemy force that's already plastered against your phalanx.

**The Walrus** · September 14, 2006, 06:04 PM

You didn't get a heroic victory because you had the same numbers almost.

**Ruhan Zarathustra** · September 14, 2006, 06:11 PM

I think the OP is having a small misconception about being 'outnumbered'. Yes, technically he was... but the AI is fully aware that with 2500-ish man armies, a 200 man difference isn't huge. It does have issues with taking into account terrain features and city defence. So it may be silly, but I got two heroic victories against Greeks in a turn when they tried to sneak attack me (We were at peace) in Sicily. My unit of Hastati and Principes held off the small 5-6 unit Greek army, by throwing pila at them and then smushing them into tiny pieces... Phalanx troops have issues going through gates... the other city I had a unit of Samnite Spearmen, Samnite Swordsmen, Baleric Slingers and again... threw stuff at the Greeks and then used my ability to make formations to crush their phalanxes as they came through the gate.

**Maximus Lazero** · September 14, 2006, 10:03 PM

It seems to me that in RTR

E, it's harder to get Heroic Victories...I was fighting battles that, with RTR Gold, I was getting Heroic victories for, but only getting clear victories.

Back when I was using RTR:GE, I had a lot of Heroic victories because of my strategy: besieging enemy settlements, and having them attack me with relief forces so that I could kill 3 birds with one stone (relief army, city garrison, capture the city). I very often got Heroics for doing that. Alas, in the British Isles, I was robbed of several Heroic victories because the game takes into account the AVAILABLE troops, not how many ACTUALLY fought. So, since I often had 1+ extra legions, I ALWAYS faught with only one because I do NOT trust the AI with my generals...
This did have a big payoff, however, as one of my legions ended up having to fight, by itself, 3 British armies with an almost 5:1 ratio. I massacred them.

**Crymson** · September 15, 2006, 12:10 AM

Taking the aptitude of the AI into account, you won a set-piece chess battle against an infant. Not so heroic.

**Ares82** · September 15, 2006, 01:58 AM

Heh, I'm playing Seleucid (however you spell em) campaign and one of my armies has those uber armored elephant unit. The army is only 600 men (give or take). I almost never get Heroic victory with that army. Hell I just massacred a stack and a half of Galacian finest (Thanks to Candalerius for those) and still only got a clear victory, and I have only 67 casualties. So I assume that unit quality has something to do with whether or not you get Heroic victory. Cause those elephants are sure the best there is (helps when they have 3 silver chevrons and some armor from the foundry).

Did I mention those elephants are freaking awesome? Like someone put a WW2 King Tiger tank into the ancient world. (Sorry a bit of topic here).

**boofhead** · September 15, 2006, 04:36 AM

I believe the formula for Heroic victory includes that not more than 25% of your forces are cavalry. Maybe your 5 units out of 19 units disqualifies you from heroic status.

BTW Amur_Tiger I love your defensive phalanx formation at the gate! Positively EVIL. A man-shredder

**Amur_Tiger** · September 15, 2006, 11:48 AM

@ boofhead: Man, Elephant, Cavalry... As long as those guys stay in formation, nothing gets through. Thanks to that formation and constant Carthigian attacks I've probably got a solid stack of hoplites between Syracus and Messena that are on average in the silver chevron area, I think 5 have made it to gold though.

**Pnutmaster** · September 15, 2006, 12:06 PM

Amur, how do you bait the AI into entering your city? Wait for them to assault the province and and initiate the battle? Whenever I attack the AI from my city they draw away from the walls and head into the field.

On the subject of Heroic Victories, I agree that there should be Heroic Defeats. I remember a number of grim battles to the last man in which my town garrisions of three units wiped out entire stacks.