Page 7 of 12 FirstFirst 123456789101112 LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 235

Thread: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Rhaeti

    According to Livy (Ab urbe Condita, V, 33), the Rhaeti, a people living in the Alps, of dubious origins, were born from some of the Etruscans, who driven from the Po Valley from the Gallic Invasion, had sheltered in the mountain areas of nowdays Veneto, Trentino-Sud Tyrol and Austria, and there melted with the indigenous peoples, gradually becaming barbaric, losing many of their customs and acquiring the local's habits.

    Pliny also mentions the same thing:

    "It is believed that the Rhaeti, descendants of the Etruscans led by Reto, were driven by the Gauls."
    (Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, III, 133)Actually, the reality is still debated, but the theory mostly accepted is that Rhaetians were a very ancient, Pre-Indeuropean people, in part ethnically related to the Ligures, so that the Romans wrote time to time that some mountain tribes -like the Stoni- to be Rhaetic or Ligurian .

    While Ligures had benefit from indeuropean elements in ancient times, and after that by a partial celtization, Rhaetians have maintained more their ancient heritage, even if they received mixed superficial influences by Etruscans, Venetkens and Celts.

    In the brief mentions of the roman sources, Rhaetians are described as barbaric populations, made ​​wild by the harshness of their territory, a warlike people armed with one bladed axes, with the habit of raiding vale villages and traders, a dangerous obstacle to the freedom of transit through the Alps (Strab., IV.6.6.; 6.8.; V.1.6.; Horace Carm. IV 14, 7-6, 17-22).

    The Rhaeti were a fierce and indomitable people indeed, and in Val di Fassa there still is a legend that recalls the desperate defense of the last Rhaetic “Castelliere” (mountain stone rampart) from the Romans of the “evil Munez” (probably Lucius Munatius Plancus, one of the conquerors of Rhaetia), in which the people of the mountains, understanding they were going ultimately to loose, used their own babies as ammunitions, throwing them from the rampart under siege against the Roman legionaries.


    Speaking of the Rhaetic panoply, the evidence are very scarces, and except from Negau and Italic-Alpine helmets, battle axes (also quoted several times by the Romans and depicted in Venetken art) and short swords quite similar to the one of the Celts of mountain region (like Orobii or Lepontii), there isn't a lot.

    Notable artifact is the "rider of Sanzeno", depicting probably a noble warrior:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Rhaetic Slingers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Rhaetic Skirmishers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Rhaetic Levies

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Rhaetic Spearmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Rhaetic Axemen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Rhaetic Nobles

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Rhaetic Noble Riders

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by il Pitta; January 26, 2014 at 02:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Biggus Splenus's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Australia
    Posts
    3,547

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    I always hated Latin... as I told you, I spent THREE TIMES to pass that horrible exam... mi PHD paper on Gauls already finished, all my other exams finished... and that horrible hag that was my Latin Grammar teacher always ready to kill me XD... so I'm sure you'll pardon me if I'm confused.
    Oh.... woops I actually only just realised how wrong I was. Equites (sub. nom. masc. pl.) Sociorum (obj. gen. masc. pl.) = The Horsemen of the Allies

    Shouldn't this be different with Pedites/Equites Extraordinarii because "Extraordinarius" isn't a Substantive like "Socius", but an Adjective, and the adjective always concurr with the case of the substantive?
    Pedites (Nominative, Plural) + Extraordinarii (Nominative, Plural) ?
    Yeah that's right too, don't I feel silly But... I'm not sure if the Extraordinarii were a formation (and we can treat this as a noun), or just an adjective to describe some troops (which I think this is the case anyway)?

    Clibanarius as I recall, is a term used to define a very heavy cavalry, similar to cataphtact, of persian origin...
    Apparently it can denote just a heavy warrior in general. I don't have evidence on me, but a native speaker did inform me about this I think he said some Celts were even referred to as Clibanarii, but the real problem is that this term didn't appear till mid Empire...

    Maybe instead of "Light Armour Marines" and "Heavy Armour Marines", you could just have "Marines" for the lighter troops (seems as this type was more common/standard), and a special name for your heavies?
    | R5 3600, RTX 2060, MSI B450I, 32GB 3200MHz CL16 DDR4, AX760i, NH-U12S |

  3. #3

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    looks really great

    pleace create some goldhats for the venti warriors.

    http://www.google.de/imgres?client=f...d=0CJsBEK0DMBQ

    http://www.roma-victrix.com/armament...italici06b.jpg

  4. #4

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Türkenlouis View Post
    looks really great

    pleace create some goldhats for the venti warriors.

    http://www.google.de/imgres?client=f...d=0CJsBEK0DMBQ

    http://www.roma-victrix.com/armament...italici06b.jpg
    HAHAHA! My friends of reenacting group Venetia Victrix XD (tuff guys... belive me... if Iutland had to take them as models for Venetkens we should also modify the game with a script for all other factions "YOU CAN'T WIN, YOU PUNY NON-VENETKEN HUMAN! XD)

    Joking apart, actually they recreate 1200-500 B.C. Venetkens (like the ones of the Situla of Certosa)... unfortunately Oppeano Helmet (the cone-shaped) is a little bit too ancient for III B.C. Venetkens

  5. #5

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Nice preview mate keep up the great work
    "Nothing is True Everything is permitted"




  6. #6

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Splenyi

    Apparently it can denote just a heavy warrior in general. I don't have evidence on me, but a native speaker did inform me about this I think he said some Celts were even referred to as Clibanarii, but the real problem is that this term didn't appear till mid Empire...
    "Clibanarius" came either from the Latin word "Clibanus", that means "oven"
    (probably a term born as a joke used by the Romans when they refer to the Parthian and Persian heavy armoured cavalrymen, that under the eastern sun looked as they "cooked" themselves in such a cumbersome and heavy armor);
    or from the persian word "Grivpanvar" (neck-guard armor).

    The name of the specific armors weared by Clibanarii/Kataphraktoi appeares in late roman and byzantine documents both in the Greek form "Klibania" and in the Latin one "Clivanii".

    There is actually a theory that wants the "Klibanos/Clivanus" to be the native term defining segmentata, but is a theory that was born here in Italy inside a reenacting group, without any direct reference, and academics refute it... in particular because is based on a biased interpretation of Ammianus Marcellinus (Res Gestae, XVI, X, 8) were "laminarum circuli tenues", used to describe the armor of heavy horsemen, has been mistranslated as "circular metal bands", when actually is "tiny plates/scales of metal sheet", so probably is just a description of an heavy lamellar/scale armor, that actuallt is commonly associated with late roman (and Eastern) heavy cavalry.


    Probably your "Native Speaker", when spoke about the Celts, was referring about Crupellarii, not Clibanarii (check Tacitus, Annales, III, 43 and III, 46), and actually that's a term used to define a gallic gladiator class (probably developed during the first years of the empire) equipped with a very heavy armor, so heavy that -refers Tacitus- if the Crupellarius was pushed down on the ground, he couldn't be able to stand up again.
    These gladiators were employed, at the side with more "normal" and less colorful troops by the rebel Galloroman chief Iulius Sacrovir.
    We actually don't know what exactly the armor of Crupellarii was (however, "Crupella" is a gallic word, meaning "metal plate": cfr. Lambert, "La langue gauloise"), and even if a little galloroman bronze depicting a quite strange warrior has been suggested to be a representation of a Crupellarius, we haven't any certainty about that:

    The so called "Crupellarius" bronze
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    and actually, the statement of Tacitus about the armour so cumbersome that hindered the movements and blocked the warrior on the ground if he falled down, make me thinks of something different than a segmentata.


    Maybe instead of "Light Armour Marines" and "Heavy Armour Marines", you could just have "Marines" for the lighter troops (seems as this type was more common/standard), and a special name for your heavies?
    Maybe, but actually the term "Classiarii" comes with Augustus, and Augustus mariners were mainly the one with the heavy armors (as reported at Actius and in the depictions of Fortuna Primigenia's temple), probably creating a standard that continues to Vegetius' time )Vegetius, Epitoma Rei Militaris IV, 44, 1-4).
    Nevertheless, without doubt prior to Augustus reform there were corps of mariners -at least Mark Anthony had them, and they are described with light armor, also represented discountinuously with something that could remind a coactilia or centonis (padded armors or felt armor).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism



    A faction for the Tectosages in the Hercynian forest would be Ok. You can recreate an invasion to greece, And make it a playable faction..... That would be funny

  8. #8

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    THE IBERIANS
    (Edetani, Ilergetes -faction replacing the Cessetani-, Bastetani -faction replacing Carthago Nova in Spain-)

    Actually, the origin of the Iberians is still debated, and still remained a mistery.
    If they were a native people of Iberia or an Atlantic people coming from Northern Africa is not known, however, it’s sure they weren’t Indoeuropeans.



    The Iberians were divided into many mainly pastoralists tribes, and their coastal communities benefited relatively early from Greek and Punic influences.


    In the field of war Iberians seems mainly to favor skirmish and ambush more than frontal confrontation, and this reflected heavily on their equipment, that was quite light.


    Early iberian shields appear to be relatively small, round in shape with a central umbo (caetra), even if more rarely appear depicted a second type, something like a tower shield that is supposed to be in wooden planks or wicker.


    During the passage between IV and III a.C., increasing contacts with Carthaginian in the south-east and Gauls in the north-east brought Iberians to adopt also the thyreos, both with or without metal umbo on the spina.


    In the field of the throwing weapons the Iberians show a notable specialization, with the development of various specialized javelins like the Falarica (similar to the italic saunion/light pilum) and the soliferreum, actually a copy of the Celtic gaesum, but if the latter was an elite weapon, thank to the iron richness of Spain the soliferreum was far more common.



    Characteristic iberian sword above all was the Falcata an improved version of the Italic Kopis : if the latter was just a chopping weapon, the Falcata, even if curved was sharpened on both sides, being usable even as a thrusting weapon.




    Helmets and armors were quite rare in Iberian context, and if in the V B.C. the iberians adopted, thanks to their experience in fighting as mercenaries aside and against Carthaginians and Greeks, the cardiophylax, at the end of IV B.C. that form of armor was already abandoned, sometimes favor of simply broad cross leather or felt straps, or linothorakes.


    Metal helmets were quite rare too, and if too heavy models would fit bad with a light and agile warfare, the rare headgear depicted on vases probably were in leather.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 












    Iberian Spearmen
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Iberian Caetrati

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Iberian Skirmish Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Iberian Slingers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Related to the people of Sardinia more than to Iberians, nevertheless the Balares were renowned mercenaries, that offered their services as slingers all over the Mediterranean.

    Balearic Slingers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Long before Carthage extended her control over Iberia, Phoenicians from Lebanon founded several independent colonies on the southern and eastern iberian coast, like Gades.
    Merchant and traders, the Phoenicians intermingled with the natives, expecially on the eastern coast with the Iberian people of the Bastetani, and ultimately became known with the name of Blastophoenicians, that means actually Bastetano-Phoenicians.

    Blastophoenician Militia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    The Oretani, which occupied the territory immediately north of the Turdetani and west of Bastetani, were a people of famed warriors and mercenaries inside the Iberian world.
    When Hamilcar invaded Spain, the Turdetanian king Indortes organized a league of Iberic peoples, hired Celtiberian mercenaries and called for help a famed Oretanian general, Istolacio.

    Oretani are also the people from which Hannibal took his wife: the princess Himilce, daughter of King Mucro, to get their political and military support (Livy, Ab Urbe Condita , XXIV , 41, 7).
    Identified in general as an Iberian people, the Oretani appeard as an heavily influenced by their northern neighbors, the Celtiberi : one of the cities of Oretani has a celtic name, which is Merobriga, and one of their sub-tribes is identified as "Germani " - a celtic word, either from “*ger”, “Near/Neighbour” or “Garim”, “Screaming” ( Pliny , Naturalis Historia , III, 25).

    However, it is true that the Oretani mentioned among Hannibal’s mercenaries are specifically referred to as "Oretani Iberes" , opening the possibility of the existence of two distinct oretanian sub-tribes , one of Celtic origin , and a more truly Iberian one.

    Regarding Oretanian panoply , besides the ubiquitous Falcata, characteristic of Iberian people, iconography allows to recognize another kind of sword too, straight and leaf-bladed, maybe a celtiberian cladeimos, and besides the thyreos (oblong shield), what appears to be a large caetra (round shield).

    Also, thanks to the iconographic sources , we can distinguish two types of helmets (much a Montefortino and perhaps an Attic) and those that appears to be linothorakes , whose occasional presence in general within Spaniards is also attested by literary sources (Strabo , Geography , III , 3, 6).


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ]

    Oretani Warriors


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Another powerful people of Hispania were without doubt the Ilergetes, that lived on the north-eastern spanish coastline.
    Their king Indibilis or Andobales is referred to puppet ruler of northeastern Iberia ( Polybius , Histories , III , 76) for the Carthaginians, and further is described coming in aid of Hasdrubal Gisgo against the Romans, with a force of 6500 Susessetani (Livy, Ab Urbe Condita , XXV , 34) during the II Punic War.
    Warlike and powerful, the Ilergeti seem to be a center of influence for the northeast of Iberia, having as clients the Ilercavoni, the Suessetani, the Cessetani, and several other tribes, who all seem to share an Iberian common matrix but a strong gaulish influence in military equipment .

    Besides archaeological findings of the iberian Falcata, there is evidence of Galloitalic helmet type with cheek-pieces (more or less pointed iron helmet with three-lobed cheek-guards), and long La Téne sword , as well as next to umbos attributable to round caetrae there are others that lead to the thyreos shield type, in this specific case , as a general view, probably the result of transpyrenaic Gallic influence more than Carthaginian .

    Ilergete Warriors - Ilergete Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    The Edetani were a strong warrior tribe on the eastern coast of central Spain.
    Probably, the first Iberian mercenaries that fought in Mediterranean wars under Carthage, Magno-Greeks and Siceliots in the IV a.C. came from this tribe.

    Characteristic of the Edetani appear to be a cap with a knobbed ridge, maybe a leather helmet, and also, they are the only Iberian clearly depicted with what have been interpreted as a lorica hamata -

    Beyond the rarity of the representation, which however is not reflected in the archaeological record, it is doubtful whether we can speak of local production or spoils of war




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Edetani Scutari Spearmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Edetani Nobles

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Edetani Heavy Cavalry


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by il Pitta; February 03, 2014 at 08:10 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    THE TURDETANI

    Among the powerful peoples of Iberia during the III-II b.C, the first to catch the eye are the Turdetani , who occupied the southern part of Spain , along the coast between Cadiz and Malaga.

    Not really Iberians , but the heirs of the Tartessic Culture ( Strabo , Geography, III, 2 , 11) , of uncertain origin , their nation is already mentioned in the Bible under the name of Tarshis as a trading partner of the Phoenicians of Tyre (Ezekiel , 27, 12) .


    Tartessic Culture is if possible more mysterious than the Iberian, however, it had a completely different language from Iberian, even if, as the latter, not Indoeuropean.



    Herodotus describes the great wealth of the mythical Tartessian king Arganthonios (“Silver One” or by extension “Tresaurer”, probably a mythical transposition of a god) and the prosperous market of Tartessos, founded on its thriving metal trade (Herodotus, Histories, I.163; IV.152).



    Tartessos’ wealth came from rich sources of copper, lead, gold, and silver in the Sierra Morena of Southern Iberia (with mining settlements dating from the eighth to sixth centuries B.C.E.



    The Tartessians traded heavily with the Greeks, and moreover with the Phoenicians, who founded their own port nearby at Gades (modern-day Cádiz)
    .


    Around 500 B.C.E. the Tartessians fought the Phoenicians at their trading town of Gades, so the Phoenicians called in the help of the Carthaginians.


    After the Carthaginians calmed the unrest in the region, they took control of Gades and even if their control on the region didn’t last long, they managed to destroy the city of Tartessos (Livy History, XXIII, 26-27).



    After that, the term Tartessos falls out of favor amongst Greco-Roman authors around this time as well, replaced by the term Turdetania to refer to the same region.


    Strabo will notice a substantial difference between the Turdetani and other peoples of Iberia , and will recognize the latter a much more advanced level of culture:

    "The Turdetani are the most civilized of the Iberians : they know to write and possess books, and also poems and a code of laws that they consider older than seven thousand years ..." (Strabo , Geography, III , 1, 6 )

    Strabo also wrote about a rich economy based on an abundant production of resources and manufacturing for export and a large commercial fleet "...so numerous as to almost compete with that of Libya [ of Carthage ] "
    ( Strabo , Geography, III, 2 , 6)

    Strabo also states clearly that the Bastetani, an Iberian people with strong Phoenician influence that lived along the eastern coast of Spain to Mastia (Cartagena), east of Turdetania , were vassals of Turdetani , as well as many other populations which in turn bordered with Bastetani.

    "But these Bastetani which I have just narrated , too, are under the dominion of Turdetania , and so the Bastetani over river Anas , and most of their neighbors "
    ( Strabo , Geography, III, 2 , 11)


    Actually, when the Carthaginians invaded again Spain, these time leaded by Hamilcar Barca, in 237, the Turdetanian lead a league of Iberian peoples and employed even Celtiberian mercenaries to confront him.


    Comparing Strabo with Livy, that indicates a conflict between the Turdetani and the Saguntini , which are referred to as their neighbors, it is reasonable to assume that at some point of history the control of Turdetani to be extended not only on Bastetani , but along throughout the south-eastern coast of Spain , going to cover also the area of Contestani and Edetani , the latter actually bordering with Saguntus.

    "With the inhabitant of Saguntius there was not yet war, but disputes that could become a pretext and that had already been stirred up between them and their neighbors , especially the Turdetani "
    ( Livy, Ab Urbe Condita, XXI, 6)


    This huge area of control is not demonstrate however until the end of III B.C., and is probable to assume that, after defeating them and making them their vassals, the Carthaginian boosted Turdetanian control over eastern Iberia.


    Having a leading role based on commercial and cultural power, the Turdetanian themselves weren’t particularly fierce or effective warriors, and Livy defined them as "The least belligerent of all Spaniards", and wrote that after engaging war with the Romans, after the first defeats , they relied on Celtiberians mercenaries ( Livy, Ab Urbe Condita , XXXIV, 17).

    Indeed in chronicles of the Punic Wars they are given only once as an active element within the Carthaginian army, together with the Edetani , sent to Africa as a reinforcement by Hannibal while preparing his expedition to Italy (Polybius , Histories , III, 33).

    Regarding the characteristic armament of Turdetani warriors, except from the clear depiction of Linothorakes, it doesn’t seem particularly different from the one of Iberians, and both by iconography and archaeological findings we can infer the presence of both Thyreophoroi (oblong shield-bearers), and Caetrati (round shield bearers) , with a characteristic crested helmets and armed with the Falcata.


    IBERIAN VASSALS TROOPS:
    Iberian Slingers - Iberian Spearmen - Iberian Skirmish Cavalry - Blastophoenician Militia

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 










    MERCENARY - ALLIED TROOPS

    Oretani Warriors - Balearic Slingers


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Turdetanian Scutarii

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Turdetanian Caetrati

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    The term Turduli is quite obscure, and is used time to time to identify a neighbor allied tribe of the Turdetani, one of their sub-tribes, or even as synonym for the Turdetani themselves.

    Actually, the more accepted theory is that Turduli could be the result of an increased Celtic presence in Turdetania, with the Turdetanians being the direct descendants of the Tartessians and the Turdulians being a more Celticized related and subjected tribe in the same region.


    (Andrew Arribas, the Iberians)

    The presence in Turdetanian iconography of bare-chested warriors equipped with La Téne straight cladeimos sword and thyreos, or with caetra, often sharing a round helmet quite different from the turdetanian crested cap, could be interpreted as the depiction of the celticized Turduli.


    Turdulian Caetrati

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Turdulian Thyreophoroi

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  10. #10

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    THE LUSITANI



    Many things have been written on the origin of the Lusitanians, and actually even the classical writers hadn’t a clear idea, attributing them time to time to the Celtiberian (Pliny, Naturalis Historia, III, 13)

    or to the Iberian family (Diodoro Siculo, Biblioteca Storica, V, 34).

    However, even if in the past were regarded by modern scholars as a Celtic people related to Celtiberians, some recent analysis have pointed out a close relation with the Italic branch (F. Villar e R. Pedrero, La nueva inscripción lusitana: Arroyo de la Luz III, in Religión, lengua y cultura prerromanas de Hispania, 2001, pp.663-698), and ultimately it came up that Lusitani were representative of an authentic culture on their own, related in the same way both to Celts and Italics (V. Blazek, Lusitanian Language, in Studia minora facultatis philosophicae universitatis Brunensis, vol. 11).




    Even so, Lusitanian were deeply celticized in their way of life, and it reflected in their military structure, with the adoption of Celtiberian military customs like the institution of Devoti and Iuventus (Diodorus Siculus, V, 34).



    Lusitanian panoply is described more or less identical to the Celtiberian one, with a particular intensive use of soliferrea, the peculiar and use of little caetrae made of a resistant vegetal fiber named esparto, and what appear to be the maintenance of the old kardiophylax.

    The Lusitanii are the strongest amongst Iberians; to war, they carry very small shields, made out of esparto (a natural hard vegetable fiber), with which can easily defend their bodies. During battle they wield it skilfully, moving it from one side to the other of their bodies, defending themselves with ability from every blow that falls upon them. They also use spears, entirely made of iron with harpoon-shaped tips, and ware helms and a sword very similar to the Celtiberians; they throw their spears with precision and to a great distance, very frequently causing grevious wounds. They are swift while moving and fast while running, so they flee and chase quickly (). With these light armors, being able to run very fast and being very sharp-minded, they can only be defeated with difficulty. They consider the rocks and ranges their homeland and so seek refuge in them, because they are impracticable to large and heavy armies. So, because of that, the Romans, who have organized countless expeditions against them, although being able to counter their daring, have not, dispite of their commitment, been able to end their pillaging.
    Diodorus Siculus, V, 34

    At any rate, the Lusitanians, it is said, are given to laying ambush, given to spying out, are quick, nimble, and good at deploying troops. They have a small shield two feet in diameter, and suspended from the shoulder by means of thongs (for it has neither arm-rings nor handles). Besides these shields they have a kopis or a butcher's knife. Most of them wear linen cuirasses; a few wear chainmail and helmets with three crests, but the rest wear helmets made of sinews. The foot-soldiers wear greaves also, and each soldier has several javelins; and some also make use of spears”
    (
    Strabo, Geography, III,3,6)



    Lusitanian Caetrati Spearmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Lusitanian Caetrati

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Lusitanian Skirmish Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Lusitanian Slingers



    Lusitanian Iuventus

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Lusitanian Devoti

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    In 82 B.C. Quintus Sertorius, a Roman high officer from Gaius Marius' party, fleed to Lusitania after Sulla took power in Rome.

    In some way Sertorius managed to gain the total loyalty of the locals, that felt oppressed by the Romans.

    Sertorius with his troops and with the help of the locals manage to chase off the Roman loyalists from all Hispania Ulterior (actually Portugal and Center Spain), and the Lusitanian acclaimed him with as "The New Hannibal".

    He ruled the Hispania Ulterior for 10 years, establishing a senate composed of former roman immigrants from Marius' party and Lusitanian and Celtiberian chieftains, and built even a school were the most prominent Lusitanian chieftains brought their child to be teached in the roman ways.

    Undefeated by all the Roman generals the Republic sent to Spain to deal with him (He managed to defeat even Pompey), eventually he was murdereded by Marcus Perpenna Vento, one of his roman lieutenants, corrupted by Pompey with the promise of money and amnesty.

    Cohors Sertoriana
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    In the period of Sertorius' rule in Spain, there is a new flourishing of local celtiberian coinage.
    The symbol on these coins, from various celtiberian tribes, is a horsemen with helmet and kontos, and similar figures is found even on steles of the same period, maybe a representation of a real hellenistic kind of troop introduced by Sertorius.

    Celtiberian Kontophoroi
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by il Pitta; February 03, 2014 at 09:30 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    THE CELTIBERIANS
    (Callaeci, Areuakoi, Celtici, Cantabri)


    With the terms of Celtiberians are described from time to time tribes born from mixed marriages between Celts coming from north the Pyrenees and local Iberians, or Celtic enclaves that coming to settle in Iberia became influenced by the local culture.

    The born of Celtiberian enclaves is difficult to define, but probably it was a process started already during Hallstatt period (700-500 B.C.), with the infiltration of Hallstatt Culture in Spain, and proceeding with the progressive arrival of La Téne Celtic warbands during 500-400 B.C.



    Celtic newcomers adapted quite well, and adopted in the field of warfare numerous elements of the locals, mainly the round caetra, employing even bigger caetrae in wicker "as large as an hoplite shield " (Diodorus Siculus, Historical Library , V , 33 ), abandoning nearly at all the thyreos, and never undergoing to the IV-III military change that brought other continental Celts to adopt phalanx formation.
    Moreover, having settled mainly in central Spain (in particular the Meseta), they didn’t benefit from Carthaginian influence until the II Punic War, so the curious overall situation of shields in Spaniards panoplies of III B.C. found the Celtiberians, that formerly used the thyreos, that had largely adopted the caetra, and the Iberians vice-versa.



    In the field of throwing weapons Celtiberians were identical to Iberians but their main blade weapons were quite different: even if the Falcata was used, it was a rarity, and the main weapon was the Cladeimos,a straight sword developed from celtic longsword: actually a broader and more pointed La Tène blade, excellent both on slashing and thrusting, that the Romans copied to develop their Gladius, that actually in its earlier phase was named Hispaniensis (Spanish).


    In the field of body protection Celtiberians warriors were normally light as the Iberians, and even if Linothorakes and Chainmail were probably present, as pointed put by some scarce findings and cross analysis with Lusitanian context, common Celtiberian warrior fought just with his tunic.


    Same was for helmet, even if from III B.C. Montefortino helmets are sometimes present, always as spoils of war taken from Carthaginians and Romans, and always modified with the removal of the cheekpieces, that would have limited the peripheral vision, influencing negatively the skirmish fighting way.



    More rare, although present, are Attic-Chalcidian helmets, again spoils of war, probably taken from Romans or their Italic Allies.

    Moreover, from the depiction of Numantia vase the use of greaves in organic material have been hypnotized, corroborated with cross analysis with the Lusitanians.




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Celtiberian Caetrati Spearmen
    - Celtiberian Caetrati
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Celtiberian Slingers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Celtiberian cavalry was famed. Hannibal employed Celtiberian horsemen, prized for their ability to fast revert from a cavalry unit to footmen, and also thanks to them he won some of his greatest victories. During the II Punic Wars, the Romans were so impressed by Celtiberian cavalry to send ambassadors within Celtiberian tribes to recruit mercenary horsemen.

    Celtiberian Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    In mountain regions of north-western Spain, mainly Cantabria, a traditional weapon seems to be the axe, probably a woodcutting tool reverted to weapon.



    Cantabrian Axemen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Also, Cantabrians were famed for their skirmish light cavalry, capable of various equestrian manouvers, and so skilled that was even eployed by the Romans after the conquest of North-Western Spain

    Cantabrian Skirmish Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Being actually prized mercenaries and fierce fighters, the Celtiberians were mass recruited by the Carthaginians during the II Punic War.
    In order to fit them better in pitched line combat, Carthaginan officers mass equipped the largest part of their Celtiberian mercenaries with thyreos, and thought them how to fight less as skirmish units and more in a regular formation.
    Actually we don't know how much of this military emprovement was assimilated in Celtiberia, but we can assume the existence of veteran mercenary warriors back to home that could apply what had been thought to them by their former Carthaginian officers.

    Celtiberian Scutarii

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Inside Celtiberian armies there were two particular groups noted by historians; the Iuventus and the Devoti.
    The Iuventus was a military society that grouped youngsters from noble families, that undergo military life, as mercenaries and/or brigands like in a rite of passage (Tito Livio, Ab Urbe Condita, XXVIII, 24), forming warbands that had been compared by modern scholars to the irish Fianna, while the Devoti were chosen warriors quite similar in concept to the transpyrenaic celtic Soldurii, a loyal guard bounded to a chieftain by oath, that in the battlefield would rather die than abandoning him.

    Celtiberian Iuventus


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Celtiberian Devoti

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by il Pitta; February 06, 2014 at 06:43 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Very interesting and awesome looking units as always mate you and Lutland keep up the great work +REP
    "Nothing is True Everything is permitted"




  13. #13

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichigorukia View Post
    Very interesting and awesome looking units as always mate you and Lutland keep up the great work +REP
    Thank you! Next will be the Germans (Western, Eastern and Celtogermans).

  14. #14
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    8,055

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    pretty good

  15. #15

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Hey il Pitta!

    I just wanted to ask if you were familiar with the work/research done by Mircea Eliade (A renowned Religious Studies Scholar) regarding living and extinct Eastern European religions, specifically that of the Geto-Dacian peoples. [Seen mostly in From Zalmoxis to Genghis Khan and Zalmoxis: The Vanishing God : Comparative Studies in the Religions and Folklore of Dacia and Eastern Europe]

    I bring it up simply because it gives magnificent and unparalleled insight into these peoples, and given the intense depth which you guys are showing to the cultures... well I would weep if the magnificent Dacians were given the shaft. While these texts might not offer much insight into these peoples military* it does give depth to their beliefs, something I would expect to see in their religious buildings (currently in Vanilla Rome 2 they have the same religious buildings as all of the Celts. COMPLETELY FALSE!!!)

    *Some speculative evidence of religious rituals involving the imitation (dress up) of wolves and somehow related to military initiation. (So a Berserker-like unit???)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Hi Caracala!
    I'm familiar with the work of Eliade and find it very interesting (though a little bit overdated now, he stull a fundamental in the field of History of Religions, like Frazer for Antropology XD ), and actually I totally agreed about having the same religious buildings of the Celts is absolutely trash... as for others cultures, We'll try our best with Dacian too ;-)

    Actually dacian religion is very peculiar il the Indeuropean context, being the only one that could be defined enotheistic, and not politheistic.

    Curious and worth of analisys the report of Herodotus, that wrote that "These people [the Dacians], under lighting and thunder, aim their bows up to the sky threathening the Gods. Also, they belive there is no other God than the one they worship"
    (Histories, IV, 94)

    If the report of "menacing the Gods" is probaly a classical topos about "notorious" barbarian's hybris, that didn't correspond to reality (clashing also blatantly with the following Herodotus' statement), is quite interesting the reference about a religious exclusivism, that would be the first and only in Indoeuropean context.

    About the wolf pelt for religious rituals, as you wrote it's quite speculations, and if it's probably true that the original name of Dacians, "Daoi", means "Wolves", besides for a totemistic ancestral link with the figure of the Wolf, we don't have any evidence of dacian totemic beast-warriors (as for, for example, the Eastern and Northern Germans).

    However the Dacian military system and army will be depicted as correct as we can, not only looking at the ubiquitous references of the Trajan Column (a good point, but reductive) but also to the archaeological findings, trying to define the social and military evolution that brought up the confederate and multicultural state that was Dacia at Decebalus time (so not only with Geto-Thracian, but also with Sarmatian and Celto-Germanic elements).

  17. #17

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Im glad to hear that il Pitta!
    Im not sure what the whole development team of this mod has in mind for buildings, but do you know if there will be a complete overhaul considering the expansion of the culture system there will be many new religious buildings.
    This brings up some possible buildings. Shrine of Zalmoxis/Samezios/Derzelas...

    Sorry for the questions and concerns, this mod has me very excited and anything with the Geto-Daco-Thracian peoples excites me!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Thank you for your feedback and posts Caracala.
    Actually we haven't settled on a final scope for this mod. We will add or change features as we go along. All is of course within the purpose of "historical correctness" that is the overarching goal of our project. The mod development is a spiralled or iterative approach, which means that the mod will not be complete in the first, second or perhaps even the 9th release.
    The changes you request should be possible to implement and could be added in one if the later iterations, if we decide to do so :-)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    THE WESTERN GERMANS
    (Heruskoz, Markamanniz, Sweboz, Himroz, Frisa)


    The archaeological evidence of the Western German peoples has been identified with the Culture of Jastorf and its successive developments, the Culture of Ripdorf and the Culture of Seedorf.

    Actually, these cultures had been deeply influenced by the last phase of the proto-Celtic culture of Hallstatt and the Celtic culture of La Tène.

    Actually, a huge part of West Germanic artifacts are bad and poorer copies of Celtic ones, especially in the field of war equipment.

    Offensive and defensive weapons of the commoners were often in wood and bone (G. Rosenberg, Hjortspringfundet) with little or no metal parts at all, and probably the most common Germanic weapon was the Framea (Tacitus, De origine et situ Germanorum, 6), a short spear used both as a throwing weapon and for melee, with a small tip, sometimes in metal, sometimes in bone or even simply a sharpened wood shaft.
    A good description of a Germanic army is given by Tacitus in the where he states:

    The Germans had no armor or helmet or even shields reinforced with iron or leather, but wicker shields and painted wooden planks.
    Only the first line of combat -if you even could call it that way-, was armed with proper spears, the others had short fire-hardened wooden darts
    "

    (Annales, II, 14).


    *thanks to Jutland's efforts, finally we have germanic troops with proper frameas, all in wood or with little iron tip, and not the enormous celtic spearheads of vanilla*

    Germanic Skirmishers
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Western Framea Warriors

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    Other melee weapon employed were the club, crude but effective, so even the Romans employed Auxiliary Germanic clubmen against heavy armored enemies, as we can see in the depictions on the Trajan Column, and the one handed axe, both a weapon and a tool, whose presence is attested in German warrior graves.

    Kessel Lith Axes
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Western Germanic Clubmen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Swords in earlier Germanic context were very rare, and the few founded were or copies or La Tène celtic swords, or stabbing shortswords of local production.


    If armors were even rarer, in the site of Hjortspringm dated III B.C., have been found various fragment of chainmail, probably the panoply of some rich noble.

    Hjortspring weapons
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    About headgears there is almost no evidence, except for wool caps like the one of the Tollund man, and copies of Negau helmets in wood founded in Uglemose, Denmark (T. Mathaissen, "Traehjelmene fra Uglemosen"), even if the use of metal-reinforced boiled leather caps has been hypothesized.


    Wooden helmet from Uglemose
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Western Germanic Warband

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Western Germanic Nobles

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Western Germani Riders

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Western Germanic Noble Horsemen

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    In the field of ranged weapons, the hunting longbow had probably an important role, though being normally an hunting tool, experimental archaologist had found that as a weapon it would had been highly effective:
    https://www.academia.edu/1479148/Nor...d_perspectives

    Germanic Hunters

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Tacitus
    refers about the Harii tribe, whose warriors went to battle with the bodies and the shields painted black, instilling fear in the enemies (Tacitus, De origine et situ Germanorum, Germany, 45).


    Even if Tacitus states that the Harii were a sub-tribe of the celto-germanic federation of the Lugii, according to some historians and anthropologists, more than in one specific tribe, the real Harii should be identified as a military Mannerbunde (Rudolf Simek, Dictionary of Northern Mythology) whose name should be matched to that of the Ein-Herjar of Norse mythology, simply meaning "Warriors" (John Lindow, Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs).


    The practice of black war paint, therefore, should not be attributed to a specific tribe or nation, but rather to a particular Germanic warrior brotherhood, linked to the sacral sphere, a sort of Germanic version of the Celtic Gaesatae.

    Harjoz

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    In the areas were Celtic and Germanic culture merged phisically one another, like in the lands of the Belgae, often arose communities who actually were cletic-speaking, but with a deep germanic heritage of which they were particularly proud

    Celtogermanic Warriors

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    II-I B.C. troops


    During II-I B.C., in the areas were the contacts between Germans and Gauls were more deep, the military equipment of the Germanic peoples became actually even more similar to the Gallic one, virtually indistinguishable, and so their fighting ways.

    The Suebi of Ariovistus fighting against Caesar formed a phalanx with long spears “as was their custom” (Caesar, De Bello Gallico, I, 52), and the Cimbrian army shows to employ a synergic infantry and heavy cavalry “anvil and hammer” tactic, common for II-I B.C. Gauls as we can assume from the evolution of military equipment, with heavy longswords for the cavalry and long “bajonet spears” for the infantry.

    Actually Isidorus of Seville describes the Teutons to be “armed in the Gallic fashion” (XVIII, 72), and the description of Plutarch of the Cimbrian cavalry, even with unquestionable “Germanic flavor”, reminds a lot II-I B.C. Celtic heavy cavalry, with longswords and chainmails, while normally Germanic peoples lack weapons and armors in iron.



    There are several reason for this, that included both the access to more resources (mainly by pillaging), and the recruitment of truly Gallic warriors within the Germanic armies.

    For example, Cimbri and Teutons in their wandering thorough Europe had collected various Celtic warbands, especially from the Tigurines Helvetii, and in some cases some of their sub-tribes had likely mixed up (Festus for example called the Ambrones “Gens Gallica”).

    Even the name of some Cimbrian warlords are Celtic, like “Gaesorix” (“King of the Iron Javelin”), “Lugos” (“Luminous One”) and “Boiorix” (“Terrible King”).

    Moreover, Quintus Sertorius, Caius Marius lieutenant, is reported to went on espionage in the Cimbrian encampment impersonating a Gaul, as proof that Celtic presence within Cimbrian and Teutons was quite normal.

    About the reutilization of Celtic weapons by the Germans, the best example is the so called “Helmet of Harigast”, a celtic Negau Helmet, probably pillaged by Cimbroteutons in Alpine-Pannonian context during their invasion of Noricum, that brings the inscription “Harigastitieiva[\\\]ip”, that has been translated as “Harigast of Teiwaz” (T.L. Markey, on Journal of Indo-European Studies, 2001), so bringing a Germanic name and the name of the well known Germanic god of war, Teiwaz (the future norse Tyr).

    Celtogermanic Longspears

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Writing about the cavalry of the Cimbrian army, Plutarch states:
    "They wore helmets made in the ​​guise of heads and jaws of wild beasts, with feathers attached, making them look even taller.
    They had coats of mail and shields bright white.
    As each weapon used javelins with tips on both sides, and in melee a heavy long swords
    "
    (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, Life of Marius, 25, 9)

    As stated by Ferrario ("Ancients and Modern Customs" p. 319), rather than helmets made
    ​​in the shape of heads and jaws of wild beasts, probably Plutarch refers to real fur and animal heads wore upon helmets.

    Celtogermanic Noble Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    I B.C. / I A.D. troops


    With the constant contacts with Roman culture, Western Germans start to employ roman military equipment, aside with the Gallic one.

    Archaeological findings had brought several Roman helmets with sometimes metal parts considered unnecessary (like cheek-guards) removed, and probably used to craft blades and spearheads, due to the well known lack of iron in Germanic context.

    Roman helmets in germanic graves

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    In a Batavian grave in Nijmegen has been even found a roman parade cavalry helmet with facial mask, that his last Germanic owner had modified with something like a wig in fur and straw (UGH!).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    If in the case of helmets, more than craft local copies it seems actually that the Germans implement spoils of war and result of trades, in the field of weapons we had both authentic roman blades and some local production of gladius-like sword, and even the invention of the angon, a Germanic version of the Roman Pilum.



    Late Western Germanic Warband

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Late Western Germanic Nobles

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Western Germanic Cavalry

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    P.S. as you can see, we tried to give to the units the most natural and historically realistic clothing colors: different shades of brown, black, gray, some green, to most troops and pale red, blue and yellow to the nobles.
    http://www.tollundman.dk/toej.asp

  20. #20

    Default Re: Conflictus Antiquarum Culturarum (CAC) a major overhaul mod of Rome 2 focused on History and Realism

    Looks awesome Il Pitta what faction/s are you going to preview next? also +rep
    Last edited by Ichigorukia; February 11, 2014 at 05:04 AM. Reason: Spelling
    "Nothing is True Everything is permitted"




Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •