Just realized why unit movement feels weird compared to earlier games.

[Osseon]

I was just playing around and when I actually got a real fight on the campaign map after about 100 turns (one that isn't just auto resolved 20 stack vs crap AI) I realized something that truly changes the way units interact with each other....

Not only do units not have Guard mode to keep their formation.... they also cannot attack an enemy without charging! This is why we always have these blobby combat mechanics, you are forced to charge on every attack, there is no solid formation march attack, if you single click on an enemy, your formation immediately breaks and every man runs as fast as he can into the enemy force.

Another thing I noticed is two units can attack each other through another man. So if Barb X is Fighting Roman Y, Roman Z might be between them like this: X Z Y and X and Y will still be swinging their swords through Z like he doesn't exist, this makes units basically phase through each other when their combat animation is done, and suddenly Roman Y is in the middle of a bunch of barbs. In shogun 2, two units wouldn't attack unless there was no one in between them, why is this different in Rome 2??

Without the ability to hold formation, or walk into an enemy, we just get mass unit blobbing that doesn't really allow for solid tactics. If I can't walk into an enemy and attack, it disallows some solid strategies I used in earlier games. This is really wonky for me.

What is funny is this is clearly a Design DECISION, not a bug! I don't think they want to fix this, but why can't we stop the charging madness!?

UPDATE: Oh my gosh! This is why Hoplite phalanx doesn't work! You put them in Phalanx and tell them to attack, they'll keep the formation until they are close and then start charging! and NOOOOO Holding CTRL doesn't fix it before anyone says so.

[Riekopo]

One thing I do like about the new movement is that it shows you the unit's true movement path and not just a straight line. That said, here is what I have noticed that is bad. It seems to me that unit spacing is way too tight (except for the phalanx and testudo which is too spacey). When units go into combat they compress and it looks like a fluid dynamics simulation. There is a massive amount of clipping going on. This creates a giant blob and you can't even differentiate between units. Regarding Guard Mode, as far as I can tell units are in a permanent guard mode and will never pursue enemies. They always stay put unless you tell them otherwise. I think you may be confusing Guard Mode with lack of unit cohesion.

[Hockey85]

It seems to me that unit spacing is way too tight (except for the phalanx and testudo which is too spacey). When units go into combat they compress and it looks like a fluid dynamics simulation. There is a massive amount of clipping going on. This creates a giant blob and you can't even differentiate between units.

This is what I have been saying since the beginning, and is really what ruins the battles for me. Once units meet in combat they just seem to compress into a giant blob. I've been playing some old RTW mods (since I find RTWII unplayable) and the men actually keep a reasonable distance from the guy in front of them. This makes watching fights and distinguishing between forces so much easier. I dont know if its modable but I hope someone can figure out a way to keep the men in your units from literally being on top of oneanother.

Also on a side note its sad how badly the old RTW units put the new title to shame as far as unit cohesion, its feels and looks so much more organized and realistic.

[BeastG33]

This mechanic made sense in Shogun 2 because of the time period and the way the samurai fought, but it makes no sense for Roman legions, hoplites, etc.

[Riekopo]

This mechanic made sense in Shogun 2 because of the time period and the way the samurai fought, but it makes no sense for Roman legions, hoplites, etc.

That is completely incorrect. Many ancient armies used formations and strict discipline extensively. I don't think you even read or understand the OP.

[BeastG33]

That is completely incorrect. Many ancient armies used formations and strict discipline extensively. I don't think you even read or understand the OP.

I'm not sure how you're getting that from what I said. I just meant the charging, more chaotic melees and 1v1's were more appropriate for Shogun 2 than Rome 2.

[Anna_Gein]

I'm not sure how you're getting that from what I said. I just meant the charging, more chaotic melees and 1v1's were more appropriate for Shogun 2 than Rome 2.

Not really, no. I doubt you have an idea how sengoku jidai armies fought. Even if you are truly interested about the topic, detailed descriptions are difficult to find but on the 1vs1 topic, I would like to remind you that samurais/bushis were less and less important on the contrary to ashigaru troops. By the way, the katana never was the main samurai weapon.

But if you mean is that given the chosen setting and intentional twists made on combat representations, I agree with you that 1vs1 animations were more appropriate for Shogun 2. I guess it looks a little be normal as soldiers use shields where on the opposite to see a legionary equipped with a short sword and a big shield dual fighting with an other soldiers and jumping everywhere looks ridiculous.

I am also under the impression that 1vs1 animations and less well implemented in the game compared to how it was in S2. If you order your ashigaru to form a spears wall, your soldiers would not leave the formation to dual fight an enemy and would stop the specific animations if the enemy soldier move back and leave sword range. Then your ashigaru would immediately use his spear again. On the opposite I saw a RII video where a pikeman would start 1vs1 animations again a legionary and leave the formation to continue the animation right in the middle of of the pikes walls.

It is really disappointing to discover than nothing was done to make formations matter or even exist in the combat despite Jack Lusted confirmations some units (mostly of the so called "civilized factions") would keep their formation when fighting.

[Swerg]

And this issue will never be fixed. Ever.

Because that would mean making new animations and fixing the combat model. Which CA isn't going to do.

[Parzival]

And this issue will never be fixed. Ever.

Because that would mean making new animations and fixing the combat model. Which CA isn't going to do.

Nah, it will be fixed. It has to be fixed. Be it patched or in the first expansion. It has to be. Nobody buy will any expansions for this game if it isn't.

The school of sardines must go.

[Riekopo]

Nah, it will be fixed. It has to be fixed. Be it patched or in the first expansion. It has to be. Nobody buy will any expansions for this game if it isn't.

The school of sardines must go.

Sadly I think what we're looking at here is an Empire/Napoleon situation where Rome 2 will be patched to an extent, but to completely fix it would be too much so they will just release a new smaller more focused game.

[jtfjtfjtf]

The only way to attack properly in hoplite phalanx is actually to walk your troops past the enemy. The easiest way to do this is to form your phalanx line and then use the directional keys to walk the entire line past your enemies.

[Osseon]

The only way to attack properly in hoplite phalanx is actually to walk your troops past the enemy. The easiest way to do this is to form your phalanx line and then use the directional keys to walk the entire line past your enemies.

This leads to problems like your units trying to walk through the enemy instead of attacking, they will only attack after quite a few of your units die. We see this with the broken capture point AI where they force a 1000 slingers through your lines. They just keep walking.

[jtfjtfjtf]

This leads to problems like your units trying to walk through the enemy instead of attacking, they will only attack after quite a few of your units die. We see this with the broken capture point AI where they force a 1000 slingers through your lines. They just keep walking.

If they're in phalanx hoplite formation they'll fight immediately once they have contact. Just walk them up to or a little past the enemy. This assumes though that the enemy also wants to fight your units and not run somewhere else. But i've fought probably a dozen battles doing this and it works every time if you want your greeks to fight like actual hoplite phalanxes.

[Osseon]

If they're in phalanx hoplite formation they'll fight immediately once they have contact. Just walk them up to or a little past the enemy. This assumes though that the enemy also wants to fight your units and not run somewhere else. But i've fought probably a dozen battles doing this and it works every time if you want your greeks to fight like actual hoplite phalanxes.

Like putting a piece of tape on a gaping wound, Its stupid that you can't click attack without disabling a formation!

[AzureNight]

Like putting a piece of tape on a gaping wound, Its stupid that you can't click attack without disabling a formation!

The entire interface is a pile of crap. Both in the campaign and in the battle, buttons are unresponsive, and the little popout menus function extremely poorly.

Remember how in the old games your army would hold formation if you grouped it? Well, guess CA thought that was a bad gameplay feature and now a grouped army has to be in a preset formation or it will deploy in a single line if you have it go forward or click on the battle map.

[Osseon]

UMMM people the point being, you can't NOT charge... this ruins formations even if we had them. This was a design DECISION, it will not be patched or fixed. Just like they will not add a fire at will mode for melee infantry.

[VektorT]

May Jupiter bless modders.

[AzureNight]

It's safe to say CA flat out robbed everyone. Indeed, the combat in this game is atrocious and the charging thing is ridiculous. It coincides with all of the stupid abilities that every unit has.

The Total War series is dead.

[IlluminatiRex]

It's safe to say CA flat out robbed everyone. Indeed, the combat in this game is atrocious and the charging thing is ridiculous. It coincides with all of the stupid abilities that every unit has.

The Total War series is dead.

Didn't people say this about Empire? Napoleon? Shogun 2?

[Osseon]

Didn't people say this about Empire? Napoleon? Shogun 2?

I wouldn't know, I've played all these previous games but not at release. Empire, Napoleon, and Shogun 2 all had amazing features building off the last game. Granted Shogun 2 stream lined a lot, but they didn't really remove anything. Rome 2 has flat out removed control and features off the core of the series.