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Thread: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod (Current version 1.5)

  1. #101

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Is it compatible with radius battle mod ? becuse i see u did edit also land battle things and i wanted to keep radius and have only you'r naval changes ;o
    All Orks is equal, but some Orks are more equal dan uvvas.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Hi Aeimnestus

    I have been using your v. 1.1-mod since release and it has really helped the naval- and land-combat a lot.
    In combination with another mod, that removes the silly flaming javelins and all the General's fantasy buffs, the battles are a lot more enjoyable.

    But ships and land-units still seems to move a little too fast to be realistic, and all projectiles are also still too deadly. A cohorte can be eliminated in minutes by projectiles from a single unit,- thats hardly realistic having big shields and armor.
    Cavalry seems to have lost their killing power if chasing after routed soldiers. It's almost impossible to kill more than a couple, no matter how long they chase them. Is that the game or the mod?

    Anyway, you are def. doing the right things and I look forward to the next version
    Have some rep...

    Cheers,
    Last edited by PhallosMaximus; September 19, 2013 at 12:04 PM.
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  3. #103

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    I don't know if you've seen this already but I found something interesting while browsing through files with PFM.

    Namely these two.


  4. #104
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    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurio Marcus View Post
    I don't know if you've seen this already but I found something interesting while browsing through files with PFM.

    Namely these two.

    hope those are added by ca in due time.


  5. #105

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Nice to hear about the addition of proper marines for Carthage as well as phoenician archers, been missing those types of units so much!

    I wish I could combine this and Magnar mod somehow ^^

  6. #106

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Quote Originally Posted by PhallosMaximus View Post
    Hi Aeimnestus

    I have been using your v. 1.1-mod since release and it has really helped the naval- and land-combat a lot.
    In combination with another mod, that removes the silly flaming javelins and all the General's fantasy buffs, the battles are a lot more enjoyable.

    But ships and land-units still seems to move a little too fast to be realistic, and all projectiles are also still too deadly. A cohorte can be eliminated in minutes by projectiles from a single unit,- thats hardly realistic having big shields and armor.
    Cavalry seems to have lost their killing power if chasing after routed soldiers. It's almost impossible to kill more than a couple, no matter how long they chase them. Is that the game or the mod?

    Anyway, you are def. doing the right things and I look forward to the next version
    Have some rep...

    Cheers,
    All your points have been corrected in the next version, which I will release in a couple of hours. I have not altered cavalry in the version you are using, so what you describe is most likely part of the game.

    I've not yet added this to the preliminary patchnotes, but I have given the unit speeds another look, and changed the charge mechanic somewhat. Units will start their charge from 80 meters (the actual distance where lines charged one another in ancient battles is pretty much unknown, but it was closer to 100-200 meters than it was to the vanilla game's 40 meters...80 seems like a good concession), and they will use the average sprint speed of a 30 year old adult minus a correction for the armour they are carrying + plus the formation they need to maintain. As an example, the average male human can sprint for about 6,2 meters per second and can maintain this for more than 100 meters. A unit of legionary cohorts in the next version of my mod will do a charge of just over 5 meters per second (about 20% slower due to having to stay in formation + the gear they carry), which they will start from 80 meters. At 35 meters the charge animation kicks in, they will slow down, throw their pila at around 30 meters, then charge in. Thus they will engage their targets in melee about 6 seconds after throwing their pila.
    I've also updated the speed of horses and camels. Surprisingly, the charge speed of horses was pretty much spot on, corresponding well with the top speed of a real horse. However marching speed was too high and has been corrected downwards.

    Naval turn rates are a bit trickier to test, due to the current buggyness of the naval battles. One test a ship turns exactly as it should, keeping its speed mostly and making a nice wide realistic turn, the next test it refuses to turn at all, only to do a magical 180 turn all of a sudden that defies the laws of physics, and yet another test the ship stops completely before turning on the spot with incredible speed.
    Last edited by Aeimnestus; September 19, 2013 at 10:22 PM.
    Aeimnestus was a Spartan, famous because he killed the Persian General Mardonius at the battle of Plataea.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Sounds like another step in the right direction....Loving your mod so far

  8. #108

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    I just tried out Your mod and I have to say it almost felt like a RTW1 fight. It is late though so didn't get to play to much but I'm looking forward to spending all day tomorrow on RTW2.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    I just tried out Your mod and I have to say it almost felt like a RTW1 fight.
    Thankfully, naval battles have come a long way since then

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Sorry, double post
    Last edited by The Border Reiver; September 20, 2013 at 03:44 AM. Reason: double post

  11. #111

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Congratulations for the good mod Aeimnestus !

    I see you're going for a realism, which is great, so i'll give you a few advices.

    I've also updated the speed of horses and camels. Surprisingly, the charge speed of horses was pretty much spot on, corresponding well with the top speed of a real horse. However marching speed was too high and has been corrected downwards.
    AFAIR marching speed of camels and horses was OK compared to the speed of men with vanilla stats - a horse/camel is ~50-60% faster in march - normal human march speed is 3-5 Kmph(average 4 Kmph), horse - 6-8 Kmph(average 7 Kmph). In vanilla slowest man speed was 1.1 and slowest horse 1.65 - 50% more. It was more or less the same with the fastest and medium ones too(correct me if i'm wrong). So it can be upped a little or left that way, not nerfed IMO if you go for realism and not gameplay.

    Also morale in vanilla is much closer to the reality of a battle. The battles where the armies fought for very long time and recieved huge casualties during the fight, were very rare and specific. In the majority of cases, if 1 of the sides suffered 20-30% casualties for a relatively short amount of time - they routed. The army that had lower morale most times would loose hard and suffer many casualties, even if it had big number advantage, as the biggest portion of the losses was during the rout/chase phase.

    So f.e. a unit with high charge and attack(falxmen f.e.) should break head on all but heavy equipped and disciplined soldiers, if left unscratched(not softened(demoralised) by missiles first f.e.).

    In the majority of cases it's OK if you loose/win a battle and the loosing army still have 60-70% of it's manpower, unless it's some battle hardened army with very good trained and disciplined solders who are also vets. IMO this also makes the game much more fun(realistic=fun ), as it's crucial what's your army morale( and be more careful with the Forced March button).
    What was not OK in vanilla was the Benny Hill battle speed - the battles in vanilla should be called "Don't blink", but it seems you have found a cure for that .

    And the last thing - missiles. Missiles should be very lethal. Even in medieval times, a soldier must wear at least mail over padded leather to have some solid protection from arrows and this is not medieval .

    Slings - much less AP power, but just slightly less/equal dmg vs non armored compared to bows(depends on the bows, in reality arrows too). Should be very dangerous for units without shields and deadly for no shield and armor units in below 80-90m range.

    Arrows - under 70-80m should be extremely lethal to all but heavy armor and big shield wearing units. Balance with big spread in over 100m distances.

    Javelins - devastating to all. Range 60-70 m at most, but should have huge AP and dmg - a javelin in a shield makes the shield useless if it's not already shattered by it. Except the wooden javs, all others should be feared as a shotgun. The balance should come with accuracy - most effective in <40m(untrained units less) and ammo - 2-3 volleys (3-4 with the 50% tech upgrade).

    Once again, great job mate!

  12. #112

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Current version 1.3


    Version 1.3 changes:

    Land Changes:

    Special ability changes:
    - Removed all "fantasy" special abilities from the game.

    Appearance changes:
    - Changed the height of every unit in the game to be more realistic to one another.

    Missile changes:
    - Reworked slingers and archers to be less deadly. Their main value is their added morale shock to units under fire, though over time ranged units will still rack up kills.
    - Slingers do more damage than archers, but have lost armour penetration. Archers have retained some armour penetration, allowing them to eventually wear down armoured units, though they are not at all effective at it. Both archers and slingers have had their ammo count increased. Javelins are the most destructive ranged weapon when they hit, but have less ammo (7, down from 10, based on the historical accounts of velites carrying 7 javelins), far less range and are less accurate.
    - Ranged mounted/naval units have more ammo than their foot-versions, but less accuracy.

    Melee changes:
    - Slightly reduced killrate even further.

    Morale changes:
    - Base morale is higher, units fighting and winning combat gain a sizable morale boost.
    - Units under fire, suffering from being attacked in the rear, and/or fighting and loosing combat suffer a more significant reduction in morale.- Overall, units will break less quickly when things go as intended, but will break faster than in earlier versions of this mod when things go wrong.
    Battle camera changes:
    - Fixed the camera zooming in so far that the player can see a layer of water below the ground.


    Naval changes:

    Roster changes:
    - Removed all ships with onagers from the game. The only artillery ships that can be used are Ballistae Quinqueremes.
    - Completely reworked the Carthaginian and Roman fleets. They still have access to the same ships as in the vanilla game, but with more realistic crews: Roman quinqueremes with hastati/principes and later on legionaries/legionary cohorts, Carthaginian tower quinqueremes with phoenician archers, etc.
    - This does result in a less diverse naval roster. Although there is still the same choice of ships, the amount of different crews is reduced. In time I will add more diversity.

    New units:
    - New unit for Carthage: "Phoenician Marines". While Carthage employed mostly mercenaries for its land armies, their navy consisted of citizens. Phoenician Marines are medium infantry carrying a round shield, short sword, and javelins, well trained for marine landings and boarding actions.
    - New unit for Carthage: "Phoenician Heavy Marines". Consisting of the wealthier Carthaginian citizens, armed in the fashion of hoplites and stationed on the larger and more valuable Carthaginian ships. No true historical account, but for variety's sake and not unlikely.
    - New unit for Carthage: "Phoenician Archers". Citizens trained as archers and employed in the navy. Based on accounts from the war between Carthage and Syracuse, where Carthaginian crews are described as shooting arrows at the greeks.
    - For now, you will only see these new units as crews on your ships in naval battles.

    Naval combat changes:
    - Ship stats reworked: reduced the turn rate for some ships to be more realistic.
    - Larger ships have had their hull points increased significantly, making them very resistant to ramming from smaller ships.
    - Note: Ships being unable to move and unresponsive to orders after getting rammed is bug/mechanic within the game that I cannot change

    Naval boarding completely reworked:

    - Boarding is far riskier. Killing the enemy crew takes much, much longer now, and thus leaves the boarding ship vulnerable to ramming or allies/enemies joining in the boarding for an extended duration.
    - Larger ships carry more soldiers, smaller ships carry less. No longer can you overtake a Carthaginian septireme with a single Roman trireme. The number of soldiers on the ships is based on historical examples where available. Romans have a large advantage in boarding because they pack on average 10-20% more soldiers on their ships than the other nations.

    Note: Initiating boarding itself is still as ridiculously easy as before, this is not something I can change.Note2: The boarding changes have only been implemented for the Roman and Carthaginian navies for this release.

    Known issues:
    - Some ships with melee-orientated crews are listed under the "missile" category in custom battles and vice versa.
    - Roman and Carthaginian ships have a massive advantage (in boarding only) vs ships from the other nations.

    Enjoy!

    To install: unrar and put the file in your Rome2/data folder. Launch with the mod manager.

    Note as of version 1.3 I no longer provide a ship-changes only version of my mod. The mod has become too complex, and there are simply too many interconnecting changes.

    Download version 1.3 here:
    http://www.fileswap.com/dl/eFPsBXBh3j/
    Last edited by Aeimnestus; September 20, 2013 at 06:42 PM.
    Aeimnestus was a Spartan, famous because he killed the Persian General Mardonius at the battle of Plataea.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Wonderful! Is this compatible with the Patch 3 Beta?
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  14. #114

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Unfortunately I can't use this mod since I'm using another comprehensive overhaul, but I am curious about bouncing an idea(s) off you since you appear to be the guru of naval combat in Rome 2 modding.

    Have you thought about removing the capacity to board for the very small ships? Or even perhaps transport ships? I'm finding it insufferable how if I ram a transport ship that they will instantly (usually) be able to board me and then easily win. You'd need to create a new unit_group that doesn't get boarding assigned to them (in unit attributes to group table).

    Alternatively, what about the idea of making transport ships ludicrously slow? I haven't read up much on naval combat in the period but I gathered as ships tried to get rid of as much excess weight as possible prior to the assault such a large contingent would be a problem. It might be gamey, but I'm going to give it a whirl.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Please do reconsider your decision about not making a separate Naval only mod.




  16. #116
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    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    I hope someone will make a Close-Combat-compatible-ship-only-light-version (TM xD) out of version 1.3.
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  17. #117

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Hi Aeimnestus

    I had high hopes for your v.1.3 mod, and just tried it out in my Roman campaign against the Gauls.
    My Legion fought a combined force of Veneti and Insubres with lots of light skirmishers and slingers.

    Does shields and armour mean anything in this game? My Triarii got completely raped by a unit of light skirmishers, who reduced my unit from 160 to 30 in one minute! Most of my losses were from projectiles and those Hastatii and Principes that did not move from the start of the battle, was mowed down where they stood. Most my melee-units was reduced to half or less in the first minutes of the battle by projectiles, although they had a screen of Velites in front!

    I think we have to do some radical modding regarding the projectiles-units that are completely dominating the battlefield. I doubt that the lethality of javelins, slingers and archers in the game are anywhere near reality. These units were only support-troops for the heavy melee-units, that really decided most battles in this part of the world.

    Maybe it's the impact of armour and shields that are completely wrong? I know that the Testudo does not seem to work,- soldiers gets shot down by projectiles anyway although only a few should be hit, being in that formation.

    Anyway, I think I will start modding as I have done with the others TW-games. I will take a hard look on all projectile-units and see if I can boost the effect of shields and armour against all projectiles.

    Cheers,

    and the whole battle, including chasing after routed Gauls, took only 9 minutes
    Last edited by PhallosMaximus; September 21, 2013 at 05:13 AM.
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  18. #118

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    I think we have to do some radical modding regarding the projectiles-units that are completely dominating the battlefield. I doubt that the lethality of javelins, slingers and archers in the game are anywhere near reality. These units were only support-troops for the heavy melee-units, that really decided most battles in this part of the world.
    And you're very wrong here my friend.

    Search for army composition from early ancient times to late medieval and you'll see, that "These units were only support-troops", were in fact anyway between 30%-60% of the armies force, depending on the culture and military organisation.

  19. #119

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Quote Originally Posted by m.minkov View Post
    And you're very wrong here my friend.

    Search for army composition from early ancient times to late medieval and you'll see, that "These units were only support-troops", were in fact anyway between 30%-60% of the armies force, depending on the culture and military organisation.
    And the reason they in numbers were a big part of many armies was because they were CHEAP. Most peasants had a spear or a javelin, or could use a sling. That did not make them vital troops, only cannon-fodder.

    The Romans, whose speciality was heavy infantry, steam-rolled over that kind of armies in Gaul, Britain, Spain, Greece, Africa, Egypt and in the East. Only the Parthians, with their special horse-archers, could dominate the Romans and only in their own country, using hit-and-run tactics.

    Nowhere else could light missile-units stand up to the heavy infantry of the Roman Legions on the battle-field.
    Last edited by PhallosMaximus; September 21, 2013 at 07:11 AM.
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  20. #120

    Default Re: Aeimnestus Ancient Naval Warfare & Realistic Combat mod

    Most peasants had a spear or a javelin, or could use a sling.
    All men can hold and carry a sword and a shield and wear heavy armor too, but does that make them elite infantry?

    Slingers and bowmen needed A LOT of training to become good at this - those are by no means "cheap".


    Nowhere else could light missile-units stand up to the heavy infantry of the Roman Legions on the battle-field.
    Why do you think testudo formation was invented then? Probably because missiles were not very dangerous for the legionnaires, but they had nothing better to do ?

    Quick reference:
    The testudo was used to protect soldiers from all types of missiles.

    and
    The resulting shape, which is a remarkable sight, looks very like a roof, and is the surest protection against arrows, which just glance off it.
    by Plutarch

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