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Thread: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

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  1. #1
    Ashu-Siralis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Taken from my blog @ AdmiralPriceTW.Wordpress.comFrom the get go, many of us cavalry lovers have noticed the very niche role of cavalry play. The game mechanics are such that cavalry units lose an inane number of men when disengaging from the fight. Also, many of us have noticed some cavalry imbalance. This post will not be a rage against both issues; it will be a form of simple solutions CA can take to rectify the situation in next week’s patch.Cavalry DisengagementIt seems that the current mechanic makes the cavalry completely unable to defend itself while on the move. This rectifies the abhorrent “pull through” exploit of Shogun II. It also has the side effect of making cavalry one hit wonders — charge in, and hope to God the unit routs, or else your cavalry is dead. I have lost more than half a unit of cavalry charging in, doing good damage, and trying to withdraw. This seems to be because the mechanics are such that cavalry lose all melee defense when on the move. I would suggest, instead, that cavalry melee defense remains constant through out, and that melee attack and not defense is reduced to zero. Thus, when pulling through, you cavalry will receive damage as normal and yet fail to inflict any damage of their own. At the same time, the cost of withdrawing from combat with cavalry will be significantly reduced, allowing cavalry to repeatedly charge and be used by good players well.Royal CataphractsPlease view the above video by Indy Pride and Madness, then read the following comments. Parthian Royal Cataphracts are the costliest cavalry unit in the game (and possibly the costliest, period), and yet they are defeated in single combat by Noble Riders (and it’s a **** up with Praetorian Cavalry). This, obviously, needs to be rectified, lest Parthia lose any competitive value for any nation. Parthia relies on its Cataphracts. If, when seeing a player take Parthia, his opponent can simply switch to a barbarian nation and takes cheaper and better horse units, Parthia’s competitive value is significantly diminished. Thus, I suggest the following changes to Parthia’s Royal Cataphracts:Increase armour to 100, increase melee defense to 25, or;Increase charge to 75 and melee defense to 50, or;Increase charge to 100 and melee defense to 25, or;Increase armour to 100 and charge to 75It would be worth testing each of these. If I knew the first thing about modding and were confident enough to do it with this game, I would do it myself. Horse Missile UnitsCA was rightly afraid of making mounted missile units overly powerful. They mitigated their power, however, by keeping their numbers low (60 instead of the 90 of regular missile units) and reducing their ammunition (15 instead of 25 for archers, less for peltests). While the first was a very good decision by the developers, the second limits horse archers to a point where taking them is completely ineffective. This is because, even if they don’t lose a single man during engagement, they expend all their arrows without killing enough men to allow the cataphracts to deliver their menacing charges. This means that, even if you play the game flawlessly, it is incredibly difficult to win with a horse archer/cataphract army that is historically representative of Parthia. I know, because I have tried. Having reduced my opponent to a giant Macedonian noob box, he withstood all my ammunition while he simply sat their. At the end, I rather waited for the timer to run out than attack his foot companion phalanx head on. This is, of course, not working as intended, and I suggest an increase in ammunition as a potential fix.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    The whole point of the system is to make you think when to commit your cavalry to a charge instead of doing the good old in-n-out love repeatedly... isn't that obvious? Don't charge if you aren't confident it will break the enemy.

  3. #3
    Dynamo11's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Quote Originally Posted by lollaaja View Post
    The whole point of the system is to make you think when to commit your cavalry to a charge instead of doing the good old in-n-out love repeatedly... isn't that obvious? Don't charge if you aren't confident it will break the enemy.
    So what about the established tactics of charge-retreat-charge of these exact type of units from this exact era?

    Ignoring that I'd like to also add that when retreating out of an engagement no horseman has EVER thought "I'm not going to defend myself at all because I have to retreat immediately and give no thought to the enemy that wants to cut my head off". They fully defend themselves whilst attempting to retreat to the position it was ordered to, so the fact that their melee defence drops to 0 is absurdly insane.

    It should never be the case that Cavalry caught in an engagement with spear infantry are better off sustaining said engagement than retreating away from, what should be, a very obvious threat.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    The cavalry is one of the things actually working well in this TW.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Shocking stuff. CA must have made a mistake with the Cataphracts stats. Have you brought this up on the official forums? These are armoured men on armoured horses belonging to a faction renown for its cavalry - there's no way these stats can be correct.

  6. #6
    Ashu-Siralis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Yep. Put it on the official forums as well.Also, to the others, no, I don't think that's how the cavalry is intended to work. Cavalry in TW games, especially "shock" cavalry, is intended for repeated charges. This is definitely in response to the "pulling through" mechanic of previous TW games.

  7. #7
    Ashu-Siralis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Completely agreed. Hopefully, this will be adjusted.

  8. #8
    TuranianGhazi's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Wholeheartedly agreed, Ashu-Siralis. Repped you too!

    Hopefully CA listens about how weak cavalry are. About how weak archers are compared to OP slingers. And how DOUBLY weak Horse Archers are since they are BOTH Cavalry AND Archer.

    Le sigh.

    Refuse to play Parthians or Pontus until this gets fixed.




  9. #9

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Horse archers need a ton more ammo, cataphracts need a buff, and withdrawing cavalry needs to not give absurd losses. Make shock cavalry more vulnerable in prolonged melee, but get rid of the stupid withdrawal debuffs.

  10. #10
    Ashu-Siralis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Thanks guys! Hopefully CA takes notice :\

  11. #11
    GODzilla's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    The basic question here is: What is the main purpose of Cataphracts, what's their strenght and even more importantly, what's their disadvantage.

    And with this in mind I don't actually believe that CA did a mistake there. Cataphracts are (imho) meant as show cavalry against infantry and they should do pretty nice against those. Maybe it is the only cavalry in the game that can be used against spear infantry, too!

    Fighting against cavalry though they're surely hindered by their very heavy armor, their very limited field of view, their slow and burdened horses (that can do the charge but I bet they're exhausted afterwards).

    Possible?
    GODzilla(TM)
    son of the family of Wilpuri under the patronage of makanyane


  12. #12

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Did someone actually say cavalry work well in Rome 2?

    I have broken armies of spearmen with cavalry. Everything in this game is broken. Including the cavalry, they are way to OP for some nations and way to UP for some nations. Frontal charges against spearmen are not lethal enough, you can just take a few chariots and barrel through the spears.

    Other times the cav v cav engagement are completely out of whack. Sword horse having a bigger charge than spear armed cavalry. It's just a mess.

    Though I agree that Cats should lose in cavalry engagements that are not charges. A cat charging another cav should be like a heavy knight charging a regiment of light horse. The light horse is going to lose the initial charge. It might make a few kills in melee but it's pretty much done.

    Spear walls, light horse from the back, missile cavalry, those should be the counters to cats, not engaging in melee with them.

  13. #13
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Double post
    Last edited by the_mango55; September 08, 2013 at 09:59 AM.
    ttt
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  14. #14
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    I don't necessarily agree with the video that the cataphracts should win that engagement. Testing units head to head is not a good way to measure usefulness overall, only their usefulness against the unit type you are testing against.

    Seems to me that Melee cavalry is exactly what you want to use to fight Shock cavalry, while Shock cavalry is what you would use to destroy infantry formations.

    I'd have to see how each performs against various infantry before I say the stats need changing.


    I do agree though that cavalry needs to be able to disengage.
    ttt
    Adopted son of Lord Sephiroth, Youngest sibling of Pent uP Rage, Prarara the Great, Nerwen Carnesîr, TB666 and, Boudicca. In the great Family of the Black Prince

  15. #15

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    Looks like CA didn't get cavalry right. Again. It's the same problem as in RTW.

    Ancient cavalry weren't knights. They rarely engaged in headlong charge into enemy infantry, and never into massed, prepared formations. They just weren't equipped and trained for it. Most of the time, cavalry engaged in skirmishing and light melee with other cavalry and loose infantry or chasing down routers. That's not saying they weren't effective. They just didn't fight like knights. They'd ride along enemy line, picking off soldiers with their lances, javelins and such, letting shock and confusion from being attacked from several directions break enemy as much as actual casualties.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    As a person who plays Parthia quite regularly I would agree with your statement.
    First of all Parthia as a faction has weak and limited infantry which is to be expected as it does not focus on heavy infantry. This automatically changes how one should play Parthia since a conventional frontal assault will not work. The eastern spearmen which is absolutely useless lose to most cavalry units and really I won't mention how bad it is against other units as at times it inflicts 0 casualties in battle and they retreat before too long. Hilmen and Parthian swordsmen are slightly better but not worth there cost and just like Eastern spearmen can be easily destroyed.

  17. #17
    Civis
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    Default Re: Suggestions for Balancing Cavalry in Total War: Rome II

    The big issue of withdrawing has been solved as of patch 3. The difference between melee and shock cavalry still stands, and is probably too big. I use cav mostly for running down skirmishers, seldom against melee or spear infantry. It definitely does not feel like commanding knights.

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