Lines of Battle: General Discussion

[Biggus Splenus]

Seconded, one of the main reasons why I dislike the radious battle mod.

Thirded. But there's 100 other reasons for me

Those graphics look horrid bro. You sacrifice graphics for more units? What are your settings and frames in a battle like that?

Not everyone cares about graphics, and less people can play on highest graphics. I'd play Rome 2 twice as much if they put more money into the gameplay than bloody aesthetics.

['Gunny]

That's... a really good idea Andonai. Mind if I use your example as a base for adding it?

As for the graphics, that's the farthest LOD zoomed in with N, which strangely doesn't change the LOD's for me

Anyway, I am continuing to work on updating for patch 3, and the bug with the AI changing direction just before combat is doing my head in, and really messing with the combat.

[Biggus Splenus]

Instead of increasing infantry's attack vs cavalry in forest, just decrease the cavalry's attack and/or defense, so that it applies to cavalry universally (cav vs cav in a forest would be impossible). Realistically, cavalry couldn't fight in a forest, they would have to dismount. Then again, realistically, any formation would have a great deal of trouble fighting in a forest...

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[Ravos]

I just installed your mod tonight and played my first custom battle and I have to say your mod is giving me hope in these battles. I've been auto resolving because they have been annoying to actually play.
Vanilla was terrible and Radious made slingers fighting to the death against my general's charge. This is a great balance.
I like how you solved the blob problem, but is there any way to fix units so they stay in formation when they charge instead of breaking formation?
Thanks for the mod! Keep up the great work.

[Andonai]

Instead of increasing infantry's attack vs cavalry in forest, just decrease the cavalry's attack and/or defense, so that it applies to cavalry universally (cav vs cav in a forest would be impossible). Realistically, cavalry couldn't fight in a forest, they would have to dismount. Then again, realistically, any formation would have a great deal of trouble fighting in a forest...

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You can add whatever you want, it´s just a tutorial. Unfortunately the use is a bit limited as long as we can´t add new tables, at least I am not sure if new tables are working.

That's... a really good idea Andonai. Mind if I use your example as a base for adding it?

Sure, feel free to use it, thats why I put the file to the tutorial, so you poor modding guys can save some time.

[DavidtheDuke]

Once CA can fix the "wheeling" INTO the enemy, I think we'll have a very good Total War on our hands. I really hope they m ake the AI moddable too.

[Biggus Splenus]

Once CA can fix the "wheeling" INTO the enemy, I think we'll have a very good Total War on our hands. I really hope they m ake the AI moddable too.

All AI is hardcoded into the exe. We can change a few behavior coefficients for the campaign ai, alternating when they make decisions, but can't do anything more than that. All we can do is change some values, and hope the AI copes with it better.

['Gunny]

I know Josst used to change formations about a bit, which definitely helped with the AI, but he is sadly not the proud owner of a Rome 2 copy.

Also, I've increased ranged units ranges by 10% because they seemed a bit low, Im working on making sure that they aren't sniping though, just allowing you to harass the enemy from farther.

[Falconiano]

I believe Romans are nerfed too much in this mod.
A Vet Legion has 30ish weapon dmg 50ish attack; it's the same as an hoplite (probably even less) but without the incredible defense of an hoplite.
I was a bit mad when rank 9 vet legion lost a fight to rank 1 basic barb sword infantry.

Roman infantry is supposed to have high attack but low melee defense, so that if the fight gets too long they die and you need to play offensive.
Perhaps a better way would be lowering their defense, rather than their attack.

[trance]

Wtf are you going at Falconiano? Roman infantry are supposed to be disciplined and formation-reliant, not supersoldiers. Problem at this point is that hoplite phalanx formation dissolves way easy and also that they completely lack killing power. Spartan hoplites has poor chances of winning a frontal assault by veteran legionaires when it should be rather suicidal to charge high-end phalanx formations head-on. The very reason hoplite phalanxes fell out of favour was that they ran serious risk of being flanked and were quite clumsy. A frontal charge should be futile. Also, what basic barb sword infantry? What barbarian? Sword-masters ? The best and most expensive Germanic unit in game ?

['Gunny]

The very reason hoplite phalanxes fell out of favour was that they ran serious risk of being flanked and were quite clumsy.

Which is why my Hoplite buffs are less to do with their defense and shield, more to do with the phalanx formation stat multiplier

As for the Romans, I really haven't seen much issues with them, I've run some observe games (me with 1 general unit, and two AI armies fighting) I've seen the Romans have several victories, and several defeats. They still do have higher attack value than most other units too, it was just nerfed by one or two points, it's not like I threw praetorian guards below naked warriors.

Edit: I was looking around in the melee weapons, and the celtic longsword is rather ridiculous in terms of damage, so I've brought it down a bit, just to make it (and a few other weapons) more balanced in regards to the melee stat changes.

[DavidtheDuke]

All AI is hardcoded into the exe. We can change a few behavior coefficients for the campaign ai, alternating when they make decisions, but can't do anything more than that. All we can do is change some values, and hope the AI copes with it better.

Sure, I'm just saying maybe CA will make the AI into some tables or whatever it uses. I'm not even sure that's possible, sure. Maybe the modders at the modding summit can ask CA about it. I'm just remember Germanicus's ReallyBadAI, still the best AI in total war yet, though it's a different era and engine.

[MKgr0ss]

wow i just did test it, 5 units of royal spartan vs 5 units of mace shield bearer. open field 1.5x size ultra

and it took a bloody 27 mins. so what will a full stack vs full stack go. haha

[StrikeQ]

wow i just did test it, 5 units of royal spartan vs 5 units of mace shield bearer. open field 1.5x size ultra

and it took a bloody 27 mins. so what will a full stack vs full stack go. haha

Had a battle of ~2000vs8000 was about 28 minutes. ~5 Praetorians, ~8 Legionairies, 5 Javelins, 2 Equites vs a bunch of Hoplite/Sword Mercs, Elephants and Javelins from Carthage. Ended up winning since I picked a river choke point on the campaign map and they only had 2 places to cross in the battle. The melee took ages, if I didn't lose a cavalry early and flanked faster probably would've been quicker.

[DramaBelli]

Would notice the same: ambush battle first and naval/land battle after, both around 30 minutes. My line of legionaries was broken only in the final act of the battle, mostly cause of natural changes of positions and my counter charges to strike enemy down. Lines of dignity for 16000 men. Looks important in taking excellent shots!

[Ahiga]

Which is why my Hoplite buffs are less to do with their defense and shield, more to do with the phalanx formation stat multiplier

As for the Romans, I really haven't seen much issues with them, I've run some observe games (me with 1 general unit, and two AI armies fighting) I've seen the Romans have several victories, and several defeats. They still do have higher attack value than most other units too, it was just nerfed by one or two points, it's not like I threw praetorian guards below naked warriors.

Edit: I was looking around in the melee weapons, and the celtic longsword is rather ridiculous in terms of damage, so I've brought it down a bit, just to make it (and a few other weapons) more balanced in regards to the melee stat changes.

The problem is that right now the phalanx formation multipler is completely worthless - even if it were made super-powerful the moment a unit is told to attack another unit they break out of the formation and lose that bonus. So all it'll do is let the player (Never seen the AI use it) have a temporary advantage walking towards the enemy - if they run or attack they'll break out of it.

I'm going to see if it's possible to assign proper animations to hoplites to let them do the Pike-wall (sarissa phalanx). I know when I tested that earlier they were in fact able to do it - they'd not wield pikes but rather shield and spear at the ready but there were some minor animation issues.

[StrikeQ]

The problem is that right now the phalanx formation multipler is completely worthless - even if it were made super-powerful the moment a unit is told to attack another unit they break out of the formation and lose that bonus. So all it'll do is let the player (Never seen the AI use it) have a temporary advantage walking towards the enemy - if they run or attack they'll break out of it.

I'm going to see if it's possible to assign proper animations to hoplites to let them do the Pike-wall (sarissa phalanx). I know when I tested that earlier they were in fact able to do it - they'd not wield pikes but rather shield and spear at the ready but there were some minor animation issues.

You can always put them back in the formation while they are engaged. All formations are is a stat bonus. The visual aspect doesn't matter. So hitting the formation while engaged will still give the stat bonus but they won't look like they are in formation. It does mess with the path finding some as units try to get in formation while fighting. Since there really are no formation fighting animation it doesn't really matter anyway.

[Ahiga]

True enough. And I may be mistaken. When I was doing the test with pike wall it seemed like I could have them in phalanx formation and tell them to attack and it didn't break their formation.

Wait, no dice. Still decides to break the formation when told to attack.

[StrikeQ]

True enough. And I may be mistaken. When I was doing the test with pike wall it seemed like I could have them in phalanx formation and tell them to attack and it didn't break their formation.

Pike is the only formation that sticks that I've seen. Every other formation else breaks on attack command. Pike formation is also the only formation you CAN NOT activate while in combat.

If formations would stick when attacking, battles would look better. Wouldn't require as much micro either. Though I would really like formation attack animations and such, but the system is currently built around 1v1 visuals (even though calculations take into account more).

[Ahiga]

I think I may have found out how to enable it during attack. I'll look at it when I get back from class. Check Unit_Special_abilities table if someone wants to look at it before me, the "Clear current order" tab - it is false for pike wall but true for hoplite phalanx and shield wall and others.