A solution to the capture the flag field battles

[IlluminatiRex]

Alright, so I think I've figured out why we have been seeing many CTF field battles. They happen during a battle when once side is in the Forced March stance.

This wouldn't be an issue if the AI used Forced March accordingly, or tried to use other stances (or none at all). However, the AI will use Force March much more than regular movement (from what I have seen). I feel this is because the positive for it FAR outweighs the negatives in the AI's eyes and opts to use that instead.

So my solution is to make the Forced March stance less tempting the eyes of the AI. This I would feel would fix that issue.

[Ciciro]

Here's my solution! NOT ING HAVE THEM!

[total relism]

Here's my solution! NOT ING HAVE THEM!

i like your idea best.

[Kinjo]

Also I had a siege battle were the Ai had a massive allied fleet, the Ai sallied from the city while I was sieging it which created a land battle with a capture point that I had to defend. The problem is once I killed everything the battle would not end, I had to wait for the 40 min timer to run out to win the battle. :S

[Eien]

Also I had a siege battle were the Ai had a massive allied fleet, the Ai sallied from the city while I was sieging it which created a land battle with a capture point that I had to defend. The problem is once I killed everything the battle would not end, I had to wait for the 40 min timer to run out to win the battle. :S

Once you captured all points, you can try to quit battle and see whether it's concede defeat or quit battle (which meant you have won already). I think it's a bug that the victory panel does not trigger.

[Tony2007]

Why have capture points in open battle

[IlluminatiRex]

Why have capture points in open battle

They're not in any old land battle, only when a unit is in the "Forced March" stance. It is to simulate more or less a baggage train. However, the AI spams use of the Forced Marched stance, hence why the abundance of land battles with Capture Points.

I'm going to try to do some tinkering around in the coming weeks to see if I can change Forced March to be less attractive to the AI, hopefully to alleviate this problem.

[johnel34]

You also get a capture point if you are besieging a city and the enemy sallies forth

[jtfjtfjtf]

There are capture points for combined land and naval battles. They said it's so if one side has boats left they don't just sail around trying to run out the clock. But capture flags are a really lazy solution.

[Prof]

That's simulating your supplies, too.

[Sephiroth88]

That's nonsense in this time period armies built camp away from the battlefield, in opposite sides, where they left a small garrison and then met about in the middle for the actual battle. I can understand for forced march but even there scouts would have spotted an army coming for you while forced marching and you had time to secure supplies somewhere away from the battlefield. And who goes after the supplies? How does it make you win anyway? Even if you manage to capture the enemy supplies it doesn't make you any good if you can't win the actual battle and route the army, since the enemy then can come and get their supplies back, and steal your own on top of that. Capture the flag MUST be removed from ALL open terrain battles, and left only for sieges.

[IlluminatiRex]

That's nonsense in this time period armies built camp away from the battlefield, in opposite sides, where they left a small garrison and then met about in the middle for the actual battle. I can understand for forced march but even there scouts would have spotted an army coming for you while forced marching and you had time to secure supplies somewhere away from the battlefield. And who goes after the supplies? How does it make you win anyway? Even if you manage to capture the enemy supplies it doesn't make you any good if you can't win the actual battle and route the army, since the enemy then can come and get their supplies back, and steal your own on top of that. Capture the flag MUST be removed from ALL open terrain battles, and left only for sieges.

I don't have the name of the battle on the top of my head, but Alexander won a battle because he captured the enemies baggage train.

[absinthia]

I don't have the name of the battle on the top of my head, but Alexander won a battle because he captured the enemies baggage train.

i am quite certain that Alex captured the baggae train PRIOR to battle, not in the midst of it.
and certainly it was not static, marked by a big flag...

i wonder what BS CA will come up with next, capuring the generals wooden leg...

[Hresvelgr]

That's nonsense in this time period armies built camp away from the battlefield, in opposite sides, where they left a small garrison and then met about in the middle for the actual battle. I can understand for forced march but even there scouts would have spotted an army coming for you while forced marching and you had time to secure supplies somewhere away from the battlefield. And who goes after the supplies? How does it make you win anyway? Even if you manage to capture the enemy supplies it doesn't make you any good if you can't win the actual battle and route the army, since the enemy then can come and get their supplies back, and steal your own on top of that. Capture the flag MUST be removed from ALL open terrain battles, and left only for sieges.

Again, history speaks otherwise. One of the diadochi generals, Eumenes, lost his war and his life because he lost the baggage train in the middle of a battle. The Battle of Gabiene, to be exact. He was fighting Antigonus, founder of the Antigonid Dynasty of Macedon, and he was winning the battle, but during the chaos some of the Antigonid cavalry got into Eumenes' camp and plundered it. Eumenes beat the Antigonid forces eventually, but since their baggage had been looted the elite soldiers in his army, the Silver Shields, betrayed him to Antigonus. As it happened, by taking the baggage train Antigonus had taken some of their families and the 40 years worth of loot they had accumulated through Alexander's campaigns across Asia.

[Sephiroth88]

Again, history speaks otherwise. One of the diadochi generals, Eumenes, lost his war and his life because he lost the baggage train in the middle of a battle. The Battle of Gabiene, to be exact. He was fighting Antigonus, founder of the Antigonid Dynasty of Macedon, and he was winning the battle, but during the chaos some of the Antigonid cavalry got into Eumenes' camp and plundered it. Eumenes beat the Antigonid forces eventually, but since their baggage had been looted the elite soldiers in his army, the Silver Shields, betrayed him to Antigonus. As it happened, by taking the baggage train Antigonus had taken some of their families and the 40 years worth of loot they had accumulated through Alexander's campaigns across Asia.

I looked it up and this battle was an exception because first there was a lot of dust due to the terrain and it was hard to see, so some light cavalry was able to ride behind the army unnoticed. Second the camp was inadequately guarded. Third Eumenes was losing the battle anyway as his left flank was crumbling and routing and Antigonus then proceded to send his cavalry on the back of Eumenes phalanx that was forced to retreat.

It is clear that this situation is a rare case, in normal condition one would see the cavalry moving and send his own to intercept on the battlefield. The point is even in your example you don't have entire armies going for the supply baggage, nor entire armies defending it (which is the way the ai acts, and the player is forced to counter). Honestly I don't see why such border limit cases need to be in the game (and ruin it) while a lot more important historical facts are not. Where are Archimedes' walls in Syracuse (and walls in general in all other non capital settlements for that matter)? Why units run as fast as Usain Bolt regardless of their armor, weapons and shield without ever becoming fatigued? Why battles are over in less than 10 minutes in the best of cases?

Yet we need to simulate baggage being stolen that may be happened a few times under special circumstances in the whole time period of the game? Come on CA get your priorities straight.

[Hresvelgr]

Alexander captured the Persian baggage train during the Battle of Issus. Incidentally, with the baggage train he captured Darius's mother, wife, and two daughters. Later, during the Battle of Gaugamela, Alexander nearly lost when the Persians got into his baggage train and he ended up having to call off his pursuit of Darius to stop the attack, prolonging the war and making his takeover of the Persian throne that much more difficult. It seems one of the big complaints about Rome 2 these days is too much realism.

[General Maximus]

Why the have them in the game at all? Capture points should be solely in the sieges, nowhere else, because they only serve a purpose in sieges.

In fact, why have the forced march stance at all as well? Unless it has some serious consequences and limitations to discourage AI and players from spamming it, like being used only a few times per decade or being very costly and totally downgrading morale and such...WITHOUT those stupid flags.

Besides, it is silly. Baggage trains aren't some huge, stupid immobile flag dumped in the middle of nowhere. They should be wagons, carriages and such.

[IlluminatiRex]

Why the have them in the game at all? Capture points should be solely in the sieges, nowhere else, because they only serve a purpose in sieges.

In fact, why have the forced march stance at all as well? Unless it has some serious consequences and limitations to discourage AI and players from spamming it, like being used only a few times per decade or being very costly and totally downgrading morale and such...WITHOUT those stupid flags.

Besides, it is silly. Baggage trains aren't some huge, stupid immobile flag dumped in the middle of nowhere. They should be wagons, carriages and such.

It's an abstract representation of it, much like all Total War games are an abstract representation of warfare in the periods they are portraying.

[krisslanza]

Why the have them in the game at all? Capture points should be solely in the sieges, nowhere else, because they only serve a purpose in sieges.

In fact, why have the forced march stance at all as well? Unless it has some serious consequences and limitations to discourage AI and players from spamming it, like being used only a few times per decade or being very costly and totally downgrading morale and such...WITHOUT those stupid flags.

Besides, it is silly. Baggage trains aren't some huge, stupid immobile flag dumped in the middle of nowhere. They should be wagons, carriages and such.

The flag just simulates the baggage train without having to actually bog the game down with rendering a bunch of things that would never be used otherwise.

And, really the easiest solution to all this? Just defending your freaking flags. It's just like defending a general, only it doesn't move and can't attack. From some of the complaints I hear, it's almost like more people are annoyed the AI makes a perfectly sound, logical choice: and goes to capture your victory points. It's the most sensible strategy in any battle. If there's a VP, go for it - the enemy is going to have to react to it, or lose.

[Hresvelgr]

The flag just simulates the baggage train without having to actually bog the game down with rendering a bunch of things that would never be used otherwise.

And, really the easiest solution to all this? Just defending your freaking flags. It's just like defending a general, only it doesn't move and can't attack. From some of the complaints I hear, it's almost like more people are annoyed the AI makes a perfectly sound, logical choice: and goes to capture your victory points. It's the most sensible strategy in any battle. If there's a VP, go for it - the enemy is going to have to react to it, or lose.

"You mean I can't just put all my guys on a giant hill and force the enemy to attack me where I want them to? Game broken! And the AI too!"