Why typical Phalanx doesn't exist, when Athens and Sparta are playable ?

[Purplzhazy]

Hello everyone,
I don't understand why Phalanx are not in the game.
I don't talk about Macedonian Phalanx here ( with sarissas ) but the typical greek phalanx !

Here we go with " la crème de la crème " of the spartan soldiers :



I really don't understand why are they holding their spears upward like that ?

Just look some Rome Total War I pictures !
Look at the difference, ( I don't talk about the fact that there is more than 300 mens in a phalanx, hahahahah ... not funny )
The guys of the second line, and the third too are not just watching
And the spear is Above the shoulder, because it's way more easy for them to handle it !




Damn, in Rome 2, the first line is just doing a kind of shield wall, when all the other are just smoking cigarettes !

Why did CA make Sparta playable, when they didn't create a proper phalanx.
Just look at " 300 " guys, Leonidas explain that : the shield protect your neighbour in a phalanx ...
This movie is just way more realistic than this game !

[Swerg]

Pretty sure those images are from a mod. Rome I didn't have any 'old'-styled hoplites, just phalangites.

[Purplzhazy]

It's from a mod yes and what ?
Rome 1 don't have it so it's Ok if today too ?
In my mind, we need to have more things than 10 years ago !
ing fast food world, people eat all day long, and so they applaud when we serve them anything a bit better !
Same problem for video games, 95% of them or terrible bad, easy, formed for autistic players; so when a game like RTW II, way better than all the others, but still pathetic in some ways, we all think that it's the messiah !

[|Quintus Sertorius|]

I wonder what happened to this hoplite phalanx:

Which is of course totally different from the pike phalanx that we also have:





The first picture shows the hoplite phalanx from beta footage as it should be. It resembles the spear wall formation from Barbarian Invasion. But still if they want it to be a true historical phalanx, it should be like this:

[tomux7]

Hoplites didn't typically hold their spears in overhand position which can been seen in pictures as far as I know.

[|Quintus Sertorius|]

Historical evidence suggests otherwise:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...tBPtxHyJ-yXZ-L

http://s3.hubimg.com/u/5273802_f520.jpg

http://www.timetrips.co.uk/gw-hoplite-art-run.jpg


I prefer the underhand position though, as shown in the first picture in my first post in this thread. No image tags because the forum is slow and doesn't show all the options here...

[jtfjtfjtf]

I think the Carthaginian Phalanx is in Square. But yeah, Phalanx doesn't make sense at all.

[Beregond]

Hoplites didn't typically hold their spears in overhand position which can been seen in pictures as far as I know.

source?

[Dasvi2018]

source?

A video explaining why http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOc9C-aPr4

[Revan The Great]

Not having ever fought as a Hoplite, I think this is largely theoretical.

However, as I understand it, fighting underhanded with a spear gives you more control, because you can brace it against your elbow and forearm, meaning that you can sweep it from side to side with more force, and you can also probably thrust with more force as well.

That said I can't imagine fighting with an underhand spear in phalanx formation. Your so densely packed, it seems that if your spear is behind held down around your waist, almost all of its mobility would be gone, as the butt of the spear would be pinned by the men around you. Furthermore, I can only imagine that thrusting a spear in this position would cause a lot of groin casualties for the men pushing from behind.

So to me, if you're going to fight as a Hoplite phalanx, it makes sense to have your spear overhand. While you may lose something in power, I think that having it free and above your head, its use unhindered by those men around and behind you, would more than outweigh this. Besides, the point of a Hoplite phalanx is as much to push with your shield as it is to stab with your spear.

[Snizel]

Revan, If you look at the first picture posted by Quintus you will see the man at the bottom right thrusting over his shield using the underhand grip. I think that is how they would have got around that problem.

[Sint]

Revan, If you look at the first picture posted by Quintus you will see the man at the bottom right thrusting over his shield using the underhand grip. I think that is how they would have got around that problem.

See dude do know how ing uncomfortable that position is ?
It's even worse than the overhand position...

A video explaining why http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOc9C-aPr4

Oh I now that video it's just completly wrong .

[Sar1n]

Here we go again...this discussion has been going on is a few threads on this forums already. No definite proof of either was given. But in hoplite phalanx, I doubt you could effectively thrust under shield, aspis is too large for that and and you'd be stabbing your own guys with buttspike.

Speaking about phalanx...how good is macedonian phalanx in TWR2? I've seen some negative reactions on that, is it true that it uses only three ranks and is overall useless?

[|Quintus Sertorius|]

I think the Macedonian Phalanx is one of the few formations in the game that look and perform good. I've just tried a Hoplite Phalanx vs Hoplite Phalanx (1vs1) battle. The hoplites in phalanx mode just rush at each other and go into a mass melee without keeping unit cohesion. Another broken formation sadly.

[Marcquez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txl8bFFsnOY (from 4:00 onwards) This is how I would like to see them fight

[jtfjtfjtf]

Here we go again...this discussion has been going on is a few threads on this forums already. No definite proof of either was given. But in hoplite phalanx, I doubt you could effectively thrust under shield, aspis is too large for that and and you'd be stabbing your own guys with buttspike.

Speaking about phalanx...how good is macedonian phalanx in TWR2? I've seen some negative reactions on that, is it true that it uses only three ranks and is overall useless?

The phalanx only has 3 ranks of fighting spears. It's good in the initial engagement when fighting another macedonian phalanx coming right for it or weak troops it can mow down. I fought a 40 vs 40 highest level phalanx battle (Macedonia's best phalanx vs. Egypt's best phalanx) and the two lines met cohesively and then had a phalanx fight for about 12 minutes. However, after the first breaking of the units the AI didn't know what to do with the phalanx. There were instances where one of my units was standing feet away from an enemy unit and the AI wouldn't attack me. I had to do all the attacking. Also, if the phalanx gets caught in the corner while marching it can throw the entire formation into confusion and it turns into a blob. This happened where I tried to phalanx 3 weak infantry troops in a row. It killed the first one easily and then when the enemy started blobbing it caught the phalanx and the phalanx started blobbing. Ordering them to move or attack couldn't unblob them though in the 40vs40 battle reforming them with the mouse did unblob them for me in one instance.

[Tighd Mhic Dubhghaill]

I will point out that phalanxes were obsolete by this point in history. Only the Spartans still used proper phalanxes and that's why they were crap. All the other Greek states abandoned the phalanx in favour of a combination of sarissa pikemen, archers, cavalry and lightly armoured melee troops. Hoplite phalanxes should not really be in the game, they have been outdated since the time of Alexander.I'm going go out an a limb and assume that your another brainwashed spartan enthusiast who can't tell the difference between something as blatantly unhistorical as 300 based on the fact that your choosing to play as someone as uninteresting as Sparta and expect that I will be ignored and or shouted down for my well-informed and un-Hollywood approach but that's life.

[VektorT]

Well, the phalanx are peforming poorly for my... I used it agains a mob and the pressure of the enemie, even the cheapest one, instead of killing them against the sarissas, made they go through the sarissas wall and engage my soldiers in close combat melee, eventually disrupting the phalanx formation. It's pointless...

[Purplzhazy]

I will point out that phalanxes were obsolete by this point in history. Only the Spartans still used proper phalanxes and that's why they were crap. All the other Greek states abandoned the phalanx in favour of a combination of sarissa pikemen, archers, cavalry and lightly armoured melee troops. Hoplite phalanxes should not really be in the game, they have been outdated since the time of Alexander.I'm going go out an a limb and assume that your another brainwashed spartan enthusiast who can't tell the difference between something as blatantly unhistorical as 300 based on the fact that your choosing to play as someone as uninteresting as Sparta and expect that I will be ignored and or shouted down for my well-informed and un-Hollywood approach but that's life.

Haha, very funny.
First, I don't play with Sparta but I did ( try ) to do a campaign with Athens, yeah !
I just put this picture of spartan because it's the BEST PHALANX in the game !

So now, you say that phalanx don't existe anymore, blablabla ...
But, the fact is that IN THE GAME THERE ARE HERE !
Like I wrote IN MY TITLE, why did CA put Sparta in this game and insert some crappy pathetic phalanx ?
Spartan and athenian phalanx are nothing ... just some spearmans ...

Finally, when I wrote than 300 is more historical, it was just a little joke ... because in the movie, phalanx are more realistic !

Actually, this game is the most Hollywood approach than CA could ever made lol.

Your commentary show that you don't understand at all my post.

[Sar1n]

I wouldn't say that hoplite phalanx was outdated. It was no longer a viable option for holding the center of battle line, this position was taken by macedonian pike phalanx. But hoplites are more versatile heavy infantry that was well suited for defending the flanks and offensive actions. Don't forget that elite infantry of Alexander's army, Hypaspitai, fought in this fashion.

AFAIK hoplites were still common troops among hellenic armies.