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  1. #1

    Icon1 Has Total War lost its soul?

    As we have all seen, the release of Rome II has met considerable backlash from the dedicated fans of the series, some demonizing the developers as manipulative money hounds trying to squeeze the last dollar out of every customer. Juxtaposed to this are the CA soldiers for hire, defending the game as the best rendition of Total War we have been graced with since Rome I, explaining to us why capture points are vital and a battle time of over 10 minutes is ridiculous. I would like to address those that strike a balance between the two, TW gamers young or old, experienced or new, who are aware that this release was premature, but are optimistic that the game can still be saved by the hard work of the developers and the community.

    First of all I would like to make known my experience with Total War. I discovered Empire a little more than a year ago, and have been obsessed with the franchise since. To many of you long-term fans, that particular game was a disaster, but having just discovered the extensive modding community of TW and installing Darthmod Empire, I found the game to be a blast. Until I found the other titles in the franchise, which helped me to understand the distain many have for Empire. Having played Rome, Medieval 2, Empire, Napoleon, and Shogun 2 throughout last year and up to now, I feel that my understanding of the series and the way it is percieved by the community is fairly accurate, and with that I begin.

    I think the first thing we have all recognized is that Rome II is a transitional title, heavily marketed and somewhat simplified in comparison to past games, it seems to be catered towards a more casual gamer. Things that quickly come to mind in support of this is the tempo of battle, the addition of rather unrealistic concepts such as capture points and individual unit abilities, and the removal of important features such as the family tree, the guard position, and the selection of tight or loose formation. However, there are some things I think really work for this game, even if they dont support the feel of the franchise. The agent system for me is the best I have seen in the series, with each type serving a function outside of its predefined roles, the champion's experience effect specifically was a nice surprise while still maintaining immersion. The ability for a force to traverse waters without a pre-built transport was to me a neccasery addition for the size of the map, however I would have preferred that this could only be done from a city port, rather than any lowland coast. Finally the province system, in my opinion, is fantastic. Ignoring the ability to issue edicts, I knew as soon as I began my campaign as the Suebi that this system would encourage diplomacy with smaller nations and provide an interesting challenge for the expasionist player. I did not like the idea of provincial capitals but can understand the need for a focal point in each province. These are things that I feel are good additions to Rome II, although some aspects may need fine tuning.

    Unfortunately, Rome II has far more negatives than positives at this stage. I only realised how flawed it was after making a pros and cons list in my head, still maintaing the delusion it was a finished game for about 4 hours in to my playthough. First and foremost is the design of the campaign map. I'm not quite sure how, and I know someone here could probably put it into words for me, but its just not total war. It doesnt bring a feeling of endless opportunities and unlike any other TW game I have ever played, I do not have an urge to explore it's nooks and corners. This may have something to do with my next point; factions. The playable factions in the game are actually quite nice, I like the variety and how spaced out they are on the map. From the Arverni to the Seleucids, I think there is something for everyone. However the minor factions bug me to no end. I have no feeling for them, no wish to see them destroyed or advanced. In Empire, I was quite invested in the plight of the Iroquis playing as the Dutch while also keeping an eye on my Portugese rival in India, and in Napoleon the importance of a German Confederation as Prussia was tantamount to me, as was the need to keep the lowlands out of French hands. Playing as the Suebi, I have no opinion of the Cimbri, Rhugii, or Cheruscii, and have only felt annoyance that the Boii exist. Not because I dislike the Boii, or because they present too much of a challenge, but rather the opposite. As your beginning enemy and rival in the area, they put up little fight, whereas they should be vying for control of the area, two fledgeling tribes attempting to spring their nations into recognition. Apart from that rather emotional negative, something to take with a pinch of salt rather than an important game issue, the loading times of the turn as a result of these countless factions, some with little to offer other than a temporary hindrance to yourself, is infuriating. As one reviewer said "I often click end turn and then get up to wash some dishes". That is just the campaign map, and not even all my gripes with it are listed here, but onto a more pressing issue for many; the battles.

    Where do I start. The units are pathetic, breaking or being killed literally seconds after being engaged. This goes for my enemy more than me, and is the first time in a while I wish the AI had more stat bonuses than myself. The removal of guard, tight or loose formation, the fact that slingers have a longer range than archers, the near uselessness of horse archers (which makes me worried for the upcoming release of a nomadic tribes DLC), the inability to control the throwing of pila, the ridiculous abilities and buffs many units possess, the speed at which they run, and fact that boats bounce of each other like they are made of rubber, are just some of the features that make battles less of an exciting endeavor and more of a chore. What makes these all the more infuriating is that they are not existing problems in the series, but ideas that have been established as core concepts or mechanics within previous games. It escapes me how CA could possibly have thought that the removal and/or addition of mentioned problems was a good idea. Apart from all these gameplay issues, the unit cards to me look rather similiar at times, they are absent of unit numbers, and are far too large, forcing me to open and close the UI each time I make a selection, something minor in theory, but time consuming in practice.

    All in all, the negatives of Rome II far outweigh the positives, but there is still hope. Many of the problems I have listed here are easily fixed assuming that the modding community is willing to put in the work and make this game as good as it should have been at release, which I am sure as dedicated fans of the series they are. If the resources are present, then we know from past experience that statistics can be fine tuned, certain design elements altered, and mechanics changed to produce something infinitely better than the original. I am not a modder myself, I do not know the ins and outs, but I have seen what some of the people on these forums can do, and it is amazing. To all those who put in the hardwork to improve these games, thank you, everyone here appreciates what you do (some might not show it as much).

    To end this longwinded piece of probably boring writing, I say thanks for reading if you did, no worries if you didnt, and that this is my opinion, among a sea of others. I welcome disagreement as a chance to learn rather than a disparagement of myself, and would really appreciate if people could tell me how they feel about Total War and whether or not Rome II has retained the soul and feeling of the franchise.
    Thanks, Joe.

  2. #2
    TotalDC's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    TL;DR

    AL I'd say is, it's a game. CA created it. Mods will .... mod it. It's 2 days old and in a few months ppl will be enjoying it. Get involved in the modding side - either do it yourself or contribute ideas to those who will be doing the hard work.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    I blame most of the issues on Rome II to the Warscape Engine.

    I do hope this is the last game that uses such a terrible engine *AI wise*

  4. #4

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcani 4 Ever View Post
    I blame most of the issues on Rome II to the Warscape Engine.

    I do hope this is the last game that uses such a terrible engine *AI wise*
    I agree, Warscape has not been a good engine. I'd rather they just stuck with the engine ME2 used because it looked fine, ran great and did exactly what it said on the tin. All this fancy is getting in the way of actually making games as opposed to making tech demos.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Cyberpunk View Post
    I agree, Warscape has not been a good engine. I'd rather they just stuck with the engine ME2 used because it looked fine, ran great and did exactly what it said on the tin. All this fancy is getting in the way of actually making games as opposed to making tech demos.
    Yes, because 20 unit stacks of ballista are so much better than the armies we have now...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    It's clear that Rome 2 drew its inspiration from parts of Rome 1 but and also from Mods like EB but is different than either, in a bad way. Everything feels poorly compromised. Shogun 2 for example is a really good sequel to Shogun 1. It has that same slightly fantasy-ish tone with the ninjas and super units. It also has really good immersion with the UI and art style.

  7. #7
    304608377's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Tell ya what. I will happy to see if the rome 2 is made by rome 1 with new graphics... That will be way better the rome 2 we have here. oh, btw fighting still sucks and soldiers die too fast.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    It just doesn't seem like they've built of the success (shut up, I like it) of Shogun 2.
    I do like the new agents, I don't like not being able to exempt an area from taxation.
    The battles don't seem as solid as Shogun 2.
    Navally, it's gone from the Empire extreme (AI won't invade over a pond) to another extreme whereby an army can build a bunch of transport ships in less than a year and SAIL to corsica from a beach near rome, when that same army can barely march a couple of hundred of miles in AN ENTIRE YEAR.
    Even if the army marched just 10 miles per day, it would only take just over a month to reach modern day Milan from Rome.

    Another example of the stupidity of army movement:
    After first setting foot in Gaul with a Roman army, could we emulate Caeser and conquer it in 6 turns (years)??
    Seasons need to be brough back in, perhaps not all 4 as in Shogun 2, but certainly summer and winter.

    Think I'll go back to playing Shogun 2, whilst keeping an eye out for decent patches from CA and the wonderful MODs that come from this community.

  9. #9
    Wolfsblut's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    All i have to say about this, i just read from someone else in the www

    ------

    If you have ever been a fan of this series it is your obligation to vote this game down so CA understands that we are no longer going to put up with --consistently-- broken products that take upwards of 6 months to fix.

    It only takes 30 seconds to create an account on Metacritic through your email but the damage you can do to CA's sales will last a lifetime. Make them think twice before they try to pull this ONCE AGAIN. A game that has any flaws does not deserve a 10/10! Not one bug!

    ----Take a stand against this kind of robbery------

    -----------------You can drastically impact CAs revenue by voting games down on metacritic.--------------------------


    That goes for the killed gameplay too.
    This game is one for a dumb 10 years old child now (if it don´t got a amd card from what i heared, no clue, the graphic that looks not as good as in Shogun II runs on extreme for me).

    No need to bother with all the braindead fanboys or the self-celebrating ignorance of CA.
    Only thing that can be done is vote and bury the serie.
    Last edited by Wolfsblut; September 05, 2013 at 03:24 AM.
    May the earth be light upon you, lest the dogs can dig you out more easy.

  10. #10
    Captain Arrrgh!'s Avatar I'z in yer grass
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    No, Total War hasn't lost it's soul. As I pointed out in my horrid wall of text post, it's getting more soul and character. Shogun 2 and now Rome 2 have revitalized it. In Rome 2 there's more and better diplomacy options, more and better agent options, and even though there's no family tree, there's still a family dynasty and more advanced political intrigue. CAI and BAI have improved, and the capture points for sieges are a vast improvement over the zerg rush to the city center that has been in every game before. Game development-wise, no CA hasn't lost its soul. Marketing and DLC-wise, yes, but then, so has every other dev/producer in this filthy industry, and most are actually worse than CA now.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    No, Total War hasn't lost it's soul. As I pointed out in my horrid wall of text post
    I'm bored of people who still don't understand that this forum is currently overstrained and any proper formatting does not work.

  12. #12
    Huberto's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    CAI and BAI have improved, and the capture points for sieges are a vast improvement over the zerg rush to the city center that has been in every game before.
    I'd be interested in hearing more about why you feel this way (keep in mind that I haven't played yet).

    Angry Joe's first Rome II video showed a CAI that fields slinger armies and doesn't attack in strength anywhere. He also showed how naval battles appear broken. Others have complained that the AI doesn't bring siege equipment to sieges or defending retreats to the center and just masses there.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Arrrgh! View Post
    No, Total War hasn't lost it's soul. As I pointed out in my horrid wall of text post, it's getting more soul and character. Shogun 2 and now Rome 2 have revitalized it. In Rome 2 there's more and better diplomacy options, more and better agent options, and even though there's no family tree, there's still a family dynasty and more advanced political intrigue. CAI and BAI have improved, and the capture points for sieges are a vast improvement over the zerg rush to the city center that has been in every game before. Game development-wise, no CA hasn't lost its soul. Marketing and DLC-wise, yes, but then, so has every other dev/producer in this filthy industry, and most are actually worse than CA now.
    Political intrigue? Family dynasty? I guess you can consider the political intrigue an improvement since it was literally non-existent before. However, it's very simplistic and doesn't seem to amount to much. Your options are:

    1.) Secure Promotion
    2.) Assassinate
    3.) Marriage
    4.) Adopt

    The only ones of any real importance are secure promotion and assassinate, but that's only because it has an actual effect for your campaign. One gives a buff to that general and assassinate either gets rid of a general you don't like or it gets rid of your faction leader which again typically has an effect on the campaign map. As characters go, however, it has no affect on anything. The game gives you another random general or statesman and that's it. Nothing came of it or will come of it. That leads to the fact that there is no family tree and family dynasty is completely meaningless because you don't know who's leading your faction. Is it your brother? Your brothers son? Your sisters father-in-law? What would be interesting is if you played as the Julii and the Cornelii could take power and you no longer have a say in the building of settlements or diplomacy. All you could do was control your characters movement. You could attack other provinces and then have the senate decide your fate for acting outside the faction leader/senate majority's desires. That was what I was hoping for, something similar to Crusader Kings. What we got was barely 10% of that, you can assassinate, but why? To put a Julii general in charge? Why and what for? Him being general has little impact on the campaign. I'd be just as happy with a Cornelii or Junii because in the end they're all the same deranged lunatics just like the rest of Rome II's aristocracy. The political intrigue is meaningless because your family in this Total War iteration is meaningless.

    The CAI and BAI is just as wacky as it has been before. I have a single unit attacking my Province Capital in Cagliari with a garrison of many Hastati, Rorarii, and Leves, with an entire Legion of x4 Hastati, x4 Principes, x4 Triarii, x4 Velites, x2 Equites, and a rank 3 general, with a navy of x3 Hastatii Assault Bireme's, x2 Scorpion Biremes, x2 Auxiliary Infantry Biremes, and a my 2 star Admiral as a Principes in an Assault Quadreme. The BAI I can simply have skirmishers launch javelin's at melee and they'll simply run at me, toggle my Velites skirmish only, go back into formation, just so my Velites can throw more javelins at them.

    That's not to say there aren't improvements, but don't credit CA with things that they shouldn't be credited with. The graphics (for me) are great, the campaign map looks beautiful, the Auxiliary Infantry barracks is a great idea (you can recruit units based off the province you are in), the provincial regions are an intriguing idea, the diplomacy seems to be working much more effectively, and the animations look amazing. However, I am upset by the removal of a feature that I felt added depth and narrative to the game (family tree) and without it, becomes a bit stale. I think it's a good game on its own, but as another entry into the Total War series, it's a let down.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfsblut View Post
    All i have to say about this, i just read from someone else in the www

    ------

    If you have ever been a fan of this series it is your obligation to vote this game down so CA understands that we are no longer going to put up with --consistently-- broken products that take upwards of 6 months to fix.

    It only takes 30 seconds to create an account on Metacritic through your email but the damage you can do to CA's sales will last a lifetime. Make them think twice before they try to pull this ONCE AGAIN. A game that has any flaws does not deserve a 10/10! Not one bug!

    ----Take a stand against this kind of robbery------

    -----------------You can drastically impact CAs revenue by voting games down on metacritic.--------------------------
    "All it does is continue to streamline, and starts to go even farther into stripping out features. Streamlining needs to STOP here! I am puting my foot down! I don't know what you are doing, or if you are gearing up for console release, but STREAMLINING DONE! It can't get no more streamlined! It' time to ADD ing features NOW, not take them away!"

    AngryJoeShow

    "The line must be drawn here. This far no farther! And I will make
    them PAY for what they've DONE."

    Jean-Luc Picard

  15. #15

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Problem is, I'm actually not so sure Rome2 can be saved by good mods. Many of the critical issues are in the core design and AI, areas of the game that we know from previous experiences that are extremely difficult to mod (hard-coded or just too complex to change with the modding tools we have).
    The game can be improved (both by CA and modders), can it be "remade"?



    "With such valorous troops, I could easily become King of Italy"
    Frederick II the Great, after the Piedmontese victory at the Battle of the Assietta (1747)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franz Von G View Post
    Problem is, I'm actually not so sure Rome2 can be saved by good mods. Many of the critical issues are in the core design and AI, areas of the game that we know from previous experiences that are extremely difficult to mod (hard-coded or just too complex to change with the modding tools we have).
    The game can be improved (both by CA and modders), can it be "remade"?
    Yep. Of course it will get better, but will it get so much better that it eventually becomes a great game? Very doubtful.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    one question: now shogun 2 is awesome? two years ago we had the same rage and flamming and same backlash regarding shogun 2, so much that twc mods had to start crackdown and use a tight leash..... amnesia anyone???
    Common sense removed due being Disruptive.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ataegina View Post
    one question: now shogun 2 is awesome? two years ago we had the same rage and flamming and same backlash regarding shogun 2, so much that twc mods had to start crackdown and use a tight leash..... amnesia anyone???
    and come the next iteration of the TW-Series(Medieval im guessing) Rome 2 will be awesome and the new one will be crap ... its always like that ... people have their own expectations of what a game will be and in the end, if its not 100% what they expected the crying starts.
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    into the whole brevity thing.

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  19. #19
    Modestus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ataegina View Post
    one question: now shogun 2 is awesome? two years ago we had the same rage and flamming and same backlash regarding shogun 2, so much that twc mods had to start crackdown and use a tight leash..... amnesia anyone???
    No from my amateur review of Shogun 2 march 2011.

    Update 27\03\11 Right played a little more and the game play as regards the campaign is good, I can stand over pretty much everything I said already however the tactical game play is appalling, the worst ever by CA shockingly bad, tactical battles are a joke.

    Units move too, fast , die too fast and rout too fast, archers are the line infantry of shogun II and it feels as if the mechanics of a game based on ranged warfare (ETW) have been adapted rather badly for a game that should be about melee type warfare.

    Though you can defend against an assault on a castle it plays as if the AI is shooting fish in a bowl and castles once again like in ETW become traps rather then strong defensive locations. Walls should afford much better protection and enemy archers should not be able to lob arrows into your central keep from outside.

    Sea battles on the other hand work, with the player able to use the different units for different roles which creates game play and enables the player to achieve a victory in circumstances that they would normally lose if they simply charged at the enemy ships.

    Sadly I feel this game play is missing from the land battles , Spear units should hold the line and act more like a phalanx with the sword units attempting to flank or to be kept as a reserve. You can see that some sword units where designed with the intention of being all rounders while others were intended to be shock troops but all this is a waste of time if everybody is dying like flies.

    And the question is are they dying like flies because of low morale and little protection or is it because the Warscape engine was intended for range warfare with a melee only at the point at which a unit was about to break. A melee mechanic that is more suitable for musket men and not men that are trained to fight in a melee.

    I have seen 6 or 7 units of AI reinforcements in good condition enter a battle and break before they even get to my line, what is going on here? I tell you one thing this wont work for RTWII.

  20. #20
    omzdog's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Has Total War lost its soul?

    Soul Eating Games for Activision

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